2004 ZF Transmission Oil Analysis

FYI

You still need to pay attention to over-propping as if your over the fuel burn then you risk damage even with an updated head casting. Follow the recommendations as mentioned above and you will be much better off, ignore it and try to run at rated fuel burn numbers and see how well updated head castings last….

Phil

We learn something new every day……

Josh,

I did not know that Cummins re did the head castings on later model 480CE’s. Hopefully they beefed up the valves and seats to go with that. There is a 2005 420 Sundancer(nicely optioned) that just came up on the block in my local area, western basin of Lake Erie, and it has 480CE’s. The discoloration is minimal so I may have to take “The Admiral” and give it a good once over. I have been looking for a couple of years now for a diesel boat with the correct characteristics for me and my wife as an interim boat until we are able to find and acquire a boat for our Great Loop aspirations. Currently there is this 420DA w/480CE’s and then there is an ’07 44 Sedan Bridge with QSC500’s in Chicago that are interesting. Both 100% Great Lakes fresh water but each have their +’s and -‘s. It never ends…….

Cheers and Good Luck with your search. In the mean time we are buttoning up for the winter.

Steve

480CE – Just one man's opinion…….

Josh,

If I were you I would pay very close attention to the discoloration on the turbos, piping and the aftercoolers. As Tony said, ignore the oil sample. Without a full history, a couple of samples will not be useful. As Rob has mentioned, what is more pressing is how those engines were abused in the past. That is clear as day in the discoloring. It is good that you read the article about the 480CE actually being a 450 but juiced up “to impress”. I have a personal scale for that turbo discoloration. It is related to pudding, as we can all relate to that. Vanilla, Butterscotch and Chocolate. Those pics land these engines between butterscotch and Chocolate in my opinion. I personally would have moved on to another boat unless I could guarantee that the propellers were tuned so that the engines burn LESS than 13.6 gph each at 2200 rpm(the 480CE has electronics to tell you RPM and Fuel burn at RPM) for most of its service life so far and that discoloration came from a small portion of those 650+ hours. If not then I would be scared every time I went out that those valves and seats were going to give out. If the props were tuned, then knowing exactly when they were tuned to get the burn down would be high on my list of things that I would want to have documentation to prove.

Give the section of that article about dropping a valve another read and look at those pictures and then compare them to yours focusing on the turbo and aftercooler discoloration. None of us can say definitively that yours will or will not drop the valves, but man that discoloration sticks out to me……….

If you love the boat and absolutely have to have it and your tolerance for fixing things and doing preventive maint is pretty high then I would say go ahead. Otherwise I would pass on this one and try to find another boat that has engines that were less abused. You could also adjust your bid on the boat to offset the risk of the expensive work that might have to be done in the future…….

In the end this is your call.

1) The design is an issue. The riser does not drain, it holds water which will run back into the engine when the riser fails. It could be 100% fine now but no guarantee. The only guarantee is that it is guaranteed not to last.

3) Ah, this is the 480CE I was focusing on the mechanical 6CTA when I noted the 3-5% rpm over rated. You need to plot fuel burn through the full rpm range and compare to the 6CTA curve … not the 480CE specs. There’s an article here on exactly that, search for it.

1) The riser is holding water when you shut the engine down, about full to my blue water line. Turbo corrosion from a bad (leaking) riser is on the turbine (exhaust) side, not the compressor (air) side.

2) I’m not suggesting adding metal, I’m suggesting getting the weight of the manifold and hoses off of the pump body plus it’s too easy to knock into when working down there.

3) Premature engine wear, dropping a valve, etc. If she hits 3-5% over rated rpm on verified accurate tachs when the boat is heavy then she is good now. What prior damage was done is an unknown.
https://www.sbmar.com/articles/engine-life-vs-engine-loading/

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JJM

Depending on when the boat was serviced in Florida you could be ready for aftercooler service at a minimum.

2018 and 2019 summer seasons and warm Florida waters. Get the aftercooler off and apart to get an idea of where your at service wise.

As to the oil samples I will tell you that 10 hours is too small of a sample period to show anything reliable. Most likely a 10 hour sample will show all is normal. If you truly want to pursue oil sampling you need to do multiple oil changes and then run it for 50-100 hours and sample. That sample will only give you a reference, not a history. Only after several 100+ hour samples will you have anything valuable as to sample history. Sample history can be helpful with maintenance decisions if your experienced and knowledgeable to oil sample history but usually not a good reliable indicator of an overall condition during pre purchase. If the seller had several oil sample histories I wouldn’t ignore them and actually take solace that it was an owner that paid attention to details, most owners aren’t that detailed and involved. The ONLY sample contaminant that you have that is valuable is you have no water in the oil – but you can tell that visually cause you don’t have a milkshake on the dip stick!

So follow Tony’s advice on the transmission and put your trust in operation of the gear, the external condition of the gear, visually how clean the oil is when looked at after being dripped on a piece of typing paper in sunlight, and what you find in the screen/magnetic plug.

If you buy the boat and want to truly maintain it at its best then plan some $$$ to go through the cooling system as described here on this cite and forums. It’s your most vulnerable item with the addition of correct propping and exhaust design. Those are your three items that your attention will dictate the future history of the boat mechanicals.

By all means we can help you with all of that. As requested, start with good pictures from all angles of the engine, transmission, exhaust, etc.

Phil

1 user thanked author for this post.

JJM