480CE longevity

[Chris Conahan]

I’m looking at a 2003 43 sportfisher with 480CEs 4400 hours. Owner states the hours have been 96 percent 10kts or less traveling to baja and back. He also states that fact can be proven from digital logs. Receipts and logs look like the maintenance has been done. Port aftercooler was replaced last year and starboard was removed and cleaned a at the same time.

I know it’s impossible to answer with the information I have……but can I expect more life out of these motors or is it rebuild time?

Can the use of the motors be seen by plugging into the computer as the owner states.
What’s a good budget number to rebuild these motors?

Topic

[Rob Schepis]

chuck young wrote:

Wish I had a crystal ball.

That is the ultimate statement right there….

Looks like you got it dialed in nice now. That fact that she made governor speed prior to re-pitch and with only 350 hours and things now made right she “should” be okay going forward but, as you know, there is no way to know 100%.

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chuck young

[chuck young]

Rob
I did buy this boat. Seatrial revealed engines made 2680 according to system view. At 2200 rpm 29.5 according to system view. Sorry but surveyor did not note individually. So im guessing approx 14.8 each. Bottom was fairly clean, 6 on board, 250 gal diesel. So no doubt overpropped. Ive been doing a lot of updating and detailing and put on a fresh coat of bottom paint and had an inch of pitch taken out. Had not been running the boat. Have been waiting for a local diesel guy who keeps postponing.Here are some numbers at the new pitch with about the same load aboard.
1000 rpm 1.5, 1.8
1500 rpm 5.0, 5.0
1700 rpm 7.3, 6.8
1900 rpm 8.9, 8.1
2000 rpm 10.5, 10.3
2100 12.1, 12.1
2200 13.2, 13.7
I did not go higher even though everything seemed good. I was en route to a mini vacation and didnt want increased risk. Have this infamouse drop issue in mind. Ill run her up on the way home in a few days. My guess is the numbers will also be good and will hit 2650+.
I finally have a Cummins guy ready to do the salt side service on exchangers, aftercoolers, gear coolers and change out the heads. So now Im wondering if I really need to spend 11K for the head work portion ???
Quick review: 350 hours, some darkening on tubes, turbo and a little on the aftercooler hot side. Some photos are posted a couple steps back on this thread. Im quite happy running 2000-2200 rpm (18-22 mph).
I would like to hear an opinion on this. Wish I had a crystal ball.

[Bert Kremer]

Thanks Steve. Had read the referenced post and I do understand the issues. I plan to have the boat summarized in the next couple of weeks and will take her out and capture the RPM and fuel burn numbers then. Actually, all of my engine maintenance has been done by the local Cummins dealer (Crosspoint Cummins). I do know that none of the raw water items have been off the boat at all. I get Cummins every couple of years to perform whatever routine maintenance in necessary, but I have to admit that I have not been checking the maintenance schedules as much as I should have. I’ve just relied on them. I’ll look at the Seaboard Maintenance schedules and go from there. Thanks again.

[Steve Lewis]

Bert,

Every boat is different so no one can make a recommendation until you post your numbers and good high resolution pictures of your engines and exhaust setup. If you are still up on the hard, have your props taken off and sent to a good prop shop and scanned so you know your starting point. Then you can continue with the following.

Of interest will be the on plane cruise RPM range. So post your rpm, fuel burn and boat speed for each 100 RPM increment from ~1800 to ~2400. What this does is give the forum a very accurate plot of the fuel burn which will then be compared to the Diamond 450 curve and then and only then can a real recommendation be made as to how much pitch to remove from your props. Read the following post for understanding not just a skim.

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/propping-cummins-6cta-8-3-480ce-vs-430450-diamond-engine/

You will want to find a good prop shop that can take your current info and then reconcile that with your desired fuel burn(the 450 curve) and convert that to pitch reduction.

Since this boat is ~14 years old you will also want to get a very good handle on the Seaboard maintenance regimen. The entire raw water side of the engine. Raw Water Pump, Aftercoolers, Heat exchangers, the works! Get familiar with the required intervals and processes. If you like to turn a wrench on your own, you can do a lot of this your self. Or find a diesel mechanic that subscribes to the practices outlined on this site and have that mechanic do the work.

Since you bought it new you are in the position to understand the entire maintenance history of the boat. I am going to guess you used the SeaRay dealer for the yearly maint. They will most likely not be familiar with the “Seaboard Way”. Compare what you have had done to what is prescribed on this site and then reconcile the differences. If you need help understanding any of the processes that are outlined, the forum will help by showing what they have done and how they operate once the setup is dialed in. There are a couple of posts where boat owners have done the whole Aftercooler maint themselves and outlined their experiences. All very valuable for the Home Gamer……..

You are in fresh water(Ohio River) not salt so the intervals are different but the work items are the same. If you have not had your aftercoolers off the engines and apart, you might have “some work” to do on these items.

Take your boat out for a cruise and plot the numbers. Take some nice pictures once you are secured at your dock and post all of that and the forum will help you get sorted.

Cheers!

[Bert Kremer]

I have a 2005 420 Sundancer with the 480CE engines. Bought it new. It has lived its life in fresh water and has 700 hours on the engines. Recently, a friend found this site and advised me of the problem identified here. I have the engine discoloration show in this stream. I have no noticeable engine issues, but I do understand that they are looming. As a first step, I will change my props and am just wondering if anyone can tell me what props I need to correct the over propping issue. I believe there are people in this stream that have my exact boat. Thanks in advance.

[chuck young]

Props,

Thanks Tony and Rob. My duh, forgot about the governor difference. Will follow up after seatrial in a couple weeks.

[Tony Athens]

Propping a 480CE

As Rob mentioned, the 480CE (465 BHP) will only make about 2680 RPM regardless of being propped light……………….When you prop it, you prop it as if it could reach 2750 RPM and you had a 450 Diamond–Use the GPH on the 450 Diamond curve at 2200- 2300 RPM to guide you as to load..WOT is not the answer, it’s the cruise load that is important as to NOT TO EXCEED.

Tony

…

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chuck young

[glenn111]

Chuck, you mention “I’m amazed that Cummins didn’t, to my knowledge, do a recall on these engines…”. I have 6BTA’s (330 hp) that had a HISTORY of the Port gear box failures when matched with the ZF80A’s taranies. This is over 10 years ago. It failed on my boat with low hours. I though that odd, so I met with the local Cummins service folks and ZF folks. The Cummins service folks acted like it wasn’t a common failure. Found that not to be true after talking with 6 other boat owners with the same configuration …failure 100% of the time. Finally I emailed the National Service manager of Cummins. They replace the gear box on one engine and upgraded the fly-wheel on both…No charge even though it was several years out of warranty. Cummins never did a recall on those configurations of boat (Maxum 41′) and engine/gear box configs, but they did assume responsibility if you got in touch with the right service manager. Just an FYI. Problem fixed. Fly-wheel was too light on the 330’s and let too much “chatter” into the gear box and it locked-up.

[Rob Schepis]

chuck young wrote:

They only showed as high as 2680 though, at 22.7 gph each. Not sure why not 2700+, maybe it didnt turn that high.

It’s electronically controlled/governed – that’s all she will turn, regardless of propping…

[chuck young]

480 CE

Thanks for the reply Phil. I’ve been fighting salt for over 40 years. Living on a Barnegat Bay lagoon. Have only been running diesel for the past five years though. Before that, a litney of gassers. Always have been proactive with maintenance, especially on the raw side. Regarding the subject boat, I’ve allowed in my offer enough for doing what I need to do. However, the 480 CEs appetite for valves only came known to me through sbmar. I’m amazed that Cummins didn’t, to my knowledge, do a recall on these engines and further why Searay and others didn’t origially prop to begin with or recall vessels sold and prop accordingly. Shame on them! According to Boat Test.com publication the exact model and boat, 2005 390 Searay MY with 480 CEs, their seatrial burn at 22K is 13.7 gpm each. They only showed as high as 2680 though, at 22.7 gph each. Not sure why not 2700+, maybe it didnt turn that high.We shall see at sea trial. If my prospective boat proped correctly. I plan to go through with the purchase if so. If not…. I’m just not sure. I don’t have enough cushion for heads, but may consider negociating down.Wish I had a crystal ball. I’m really thankfull having this forum.

[Philip]

Typical but a little dark – indicates that it’s been run overpropped/overloaded.

335 hours vs 14 years old…. you need to read and UNDERSTAND ‘marine age’.

https://www.sbmar.com/featured-article/marine-age-the-real-age-of-a-marine-diesel-engine/

Plan/budget on going through your entire cooling system (pumps, all coolers/heat exchangers, etc) before using the boat. All those items have had salt water sitting inside for 14 years.

Phil

[chuck young]

Props

Thank you Tony. I’ll know in a few weeks during the seatrial what the burn is.
If not 2700-2750 WOT I would have the props pitched to get there. I will attempt to post a few photos of the coloration of on of the turbos,tubes and aftercooler.sorry these photos are weak I took these on my initial look at this boat beforeI became aware of the 480CE issue. Local guy said this coloration is tipical. Do you agree considering they only have about 335 hrs ?

[Tony Athens]

Newer 480CE head — Same replacement head is used on the “450 Diamond”–Prop selection needs to matched for 430 BHP 2700-2750 RPM “loaded for bear”……………

Tony

[chuck young]

New heads ?

Thank you Rob. I understand replacement heads have an updated part number and some minor modification. Can you, or another member tell me if any change was made to the newer ones addressing the valve issue? I did see a similar question posted before, but no follow up.

[Rob Schepis]

charles wrote:

If at sea trial, clean bottom and gear, and I get the numbers of the 450 curve, and good temps, Am I safe to assume I’m not headed for a valve drop?

It will still be an “assumption” but a safe one IMO. Make the boat heavy on the sea trial. Invite fat friends and fill tanks and coolers or barrels with water. Hopefully she’s got a good amount of fuel in the tanks… Make a good RPM vs. GPH table when you seatrial.

[chuck young]

Please excuse me if I’m asking in the wrong thread. I’ve just gone into contract, pending survey and sea trial on a 2005 390 Searay MY. Engines are the 480CEs. Only 335 hours on them. I know that sounds like it could be an issue itself. However, I do know that the boat ran strong late last season on a 200+ mile run. I’m also aware of the good info posted by Tony and crew re prop/rpm/boost and fuel burn. According to info posted on line from SEARAY sea trials for this model/power, the fuel burn/RPM is nearly exact to that of the 450 diamond. The turbo and tubes are not brown but are quite tan. The aftercoolers have a lighter tan on the hot side. Local diesel guy said color is normal, not excessive. There is no real history available for this boat except for the last two years. I don’t know if the aftercoolers have ever been serviced. There is no exterior evidence of deterioration at the cap joints. I intend to service the aftercoolers right after closing. My question is this… If at sea trial, clean bottom and gear, and I get the numbers of the 450 curve, and good temps, Am I safe to assume I’m not headed for a valve drop?

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Joann White

[Mike Gilbert]

Changing my head(s)

I totally agree with all of the comments above. I had a 480ce motor problem due to over propping a couple of years ago, 25k worth. I took out 2″ of pitch which got it down to the 450 specs or very close to it(within tenths gph). Since then I have always had an un easy feeling of “when is the other motor going to break”? I just ordered my revised head from Cummins and have scheduled the replacement for this spring. I think the 5/6k now is better then 25k+ down the road. We are planning on doing the Great Loop this year leaving from 1000 islands in upstate NY and headed down the middle of the country, cross the Gulf to Keywest then back up the east coast(ICW), the last thing I need is to have a motor problem. I am looking at the repair as insurance!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Rob Schepis

[Chris Conahan]

The boat got to 2600 I didn’t record the data because the STBD engine temp started to climb so I backed it off immediately. We are going to go through the cooling system and rerun the seatrial and get that data. attached is the Cummins tech bulletin on the valve seat material change. I assume this is in response to the failures but doesn’t address the 480ce directly buy all 6C8.3’s. seems like an improvement but not fix to me.

[Rob Schepis]

Great that you were happy with the performance in that 2,100 to 2,200 range. Not far from where you need to be, could get a tad worse with full fuel.. Looks like nothing some prop tuning can’t take care of. Did you bring it up to 2,600? GPH & % Load at 2,600? So at least she’s not overpropped ats to what ‘s in print for the 480CE but as you know she is overpropped as to the 430/450 Diamond which is what she really is, sans-ECM…

Sounds as if you like the boat… So if all makes “sense and cents” – buy her, do the heads and prop her back a bit..

[Chris Conahan]

Performance Stats

Finally arrived at an offer with the seller and recorded these numbers on a sea trial this morning ( RPM, Port and Stbd fuel consumption). The boat was loaded with 6 men, 1/2 fuel, full water, close to the way I would operate the boat regularly. I am happy running this boat around 2100-2200rpm. The engine load, per the readout, said 76% at 2200 RPM. Seems to come very close to the 480CE published curves but off of the 450 curves. Comments? Opinions?

RPM P S
900 1.9 1.7
1000 2.1 2.1
1100 2.4 2.3
1200 2.8 3
1300 3.6 3.7
1400 4.2 4.1
1500 5.1 5
1600 6.1 5.9
1700 6.8 6.6
1800 7.7 7.5
1900 9.7 9.3
2000 11.2 10.7
2100 12.8 12.2
2200 14.3 14.1
2300 16.1 15.3
2400 18.8 18.1
2500 20 19.3

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