Cummins Marine Diesel Repower Specialists Forums Cummins Marine Engines 450 C's Both Head Gaskets shot at 750 Hours?

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  • #15182

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Well, we sold our 2002 SeaRay 400 Sedan Bridge.  Great Boat, Engines have been wonderful…so we thought.  On the Sea Trial, the Mechanic found that both engines had both blown head gaskets, both inter coolers must be cologged becasue of the heat issues, and turbo boost on one of them…all at 750 hours.  So if we break it down one at a time, heopfully I can post the video’s for the Head Gaskets.  What’s weird is that it’s not Blue.

    Next, the after Cooler.  I just serviced them both.  Mechanic asked if I had them cleaned Ultra sonic.  Nope, soaked them both in simple green for three days, nasty junk at the bottom of the bucket after the soaking and checked each hole in the core. I asked him if I could have put them in backwards, he said yes and that would cause it.  Will have to look for pics.

    Finally, Boost on one side is 8lbs lower. 

    So, is this because of winterizaiton?  Thoughts?  Kind of in a pickle.

    Not sure how to upload video.  Best way to see whats going on.

     

Viewing 20 replies - 1 through 20 (of 24 total)
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  • #15471

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Motor Head Article on Re-torquing the Head

    Tony,

    Found this to be a good supplement from the land lubbers.  The second method is obviously the one, but adds some good info to the knowledge base.  Not going to to torque to what they do, I don’t feel like tapping today.

    http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/0811dp-cummins-head-bolt-tech-how-to/

    #15464

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Quick Question. Have your sheet on retorqueing the head. Does that have to be done warm?  I am going to do that regardless. I gather pulling each bolt out and then putting it back in at the correct spec per your sheet?  Thanks. 

    #15461

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Sad?  Denial?  Nah…Trust but verify.  Cummins on board early next week. Regardless, has to be dealt with. Instead of playing he said she said, which in the end does not change anything for me, let’s see what is found by an actual Cummins Mechanic while the boat is being run. Even if you agreed, still have to run the boat.   If you are indeed correct, which I hope your not for money reasons, have to verify by a trusted party. 

     

    Thanks for for your help as always, and stay tuned, I will let you know the findings…even if you are right:-)

    #15459

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Scott,

     

    I just talked with another very experienced guy with this vintage of engines.. They basically all do it to some extent at higher loads……..The Head gasket  quality and torque-ing technique needed to be changed for the higher HP marine engines………You are in denial………………… SAD..

     

    Tony

    #15458

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Tony, interesting.  I think I am going to have to have Cummins, not my local dealer, but Cary Diesel, they know Cummins re-do the survey.  They saw the video’s as well.  They are familiar with this vintage, they said they saw the head gasket problem, but it was earlier.  So only way for sure, get them on board, and we will setup a betting pool.  Stay tuned, will keep you posted.

     

    Thanks again for your input.  Need to post the impeller pics…

     

    #15457

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Scott,

    I studied your “movies” and then showed them to one very sharp dude that has direct experience with this issue on this vintage of engine……..100% for sure, your head gaskets are leaking………………….I will also offer you this from the same guy….

    Yep, “weepy” 2172 head gasket. I’ve fixed a few of those. One had no overhead clearance to pull head so I did a re-torque, pulling one bolt at a time. Going to latest spec, each bolt got about 45 deg more rotation. It worked!!

    I have the torque spec on my web site.

    As to your aftercooler—The top is leaking which means that you have very high restriction after it in the seawater circuit.. Gear cooler, heat-x, or exhaust mixer, or a combo.. Get that fixed too.. You could install a 0-30PSI gauge where the top zinc on the aftercooler is to confirm…

    Don’t read anything into this–Just do it..

     

    If a re-torque described here  does not fit it, you will have to pull the headed and re-gasket and also get all new bolts

     

    Tony

    #15440

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Here are the pics. Sorry for the delay.

    1.  Port Engine Throttle.  It’s disconnected, and the travel goes beyond the cable WOT.

    2.  Oil Dipstick Starboard Motor.  Clean.

    3.  Starboard Freeze plug.  Paint is wet with Anti-Freeze, Paint comes right off, you can still see some to Blue.

    4.  Leak and AF trail Port engine.

     

    Thanks in advance for your input. 

    #15388

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Ok, how about I tell you my assmemt, and you can grade me.:-)

    Sometimes I think we all need a good Diesel listener….

    1.  Starboad Motor:  Blown Head.  The surveyor told the broker he wiped the back of the motor to make sure it was not leaking.  Not sure where he wiped or what, but when I wiped it, the freeze port was still wet with coolant and the paint came right off.  The port is leaking.  I pressurized the cooling system.  No other leaks found.  Also checked oil, I had just changed it, but no signs of anything in the oil, and when I changed the oil in December, oil looked fine.  Conclusion:  Need a new Freeze Plug.

    2.  Port Motor.  Blown Head.  Looking at the leak, the anti-freeze is coming down the right side of the head.  I pressurized the system, and it was leaking, one of the hoses was loose near the exchanger, could follow the trail, boat would have to be on plane, but you could see it.  Tightened hose with non-caterpillar wrench, leak stopped.  Held pressure.

    3.  Port Motor.  Low WOT and low Turbo Boost.  Port Motor is Lead on Sync, noticed big difference when putting on plane with out sync between port and starboard during Sea Trial.  Put Port Motor at WOT, disconnected cable, and had significant, like an 1″ from the top that throttle still could go forward.  Big Fix, adjusted cable.

    4.  Turbo, the boost loss was at WOT, SO DUH! Not getting WOT, you are not going to have the boost, unless you have a blown head, but this is a Cummins.

    5.  Coolers:  I think he had no clue they were just serviced.  Just a guess, but he told me they had never been serviced and how they needed US cleaning anenpressure testing and so on.  That did not really make it on the report, and if it did, might have missed it.

    6.  All Neoprene hoses needed to be replaced.  He told that to me when he was telling me about the service.  I called in Brad, as he is an expert in Neoprene, and he told me as needed.  Which is what you have always said.  I inspected them again as I had everything off, and they all look good to me.  I will give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe where he is or with CAT, that is standard.  He’s a nice guy, I think he tried to do his clients well, and he would be awesome on CATS I am sure

    I have the pics, which will,post later.

    Let me know what you think. 

    Thanks!

    #15383

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    A few other things.  When I read the survey report, it seemed like it wasn’t much of a report, meaning he knew other people were going to be looking at it.  He told me that every time the cores are cleaned, new neoprene hoses are supposed to be replaced.  Jus chatted with Brad, he said nope, as needed.  Good news is that is what I thought as well.  Also on the report he says each engine is a gallon low.  Not really, I always leave the pile 1Gallong low, and then add 1 gallon of Lucas.  The oil was changed late in the season, I came down early to do those things, and they were on the boat already.  I told him that.

    Later today, I will have more info, on the boat now.

     

    stay tuned…

    #15379

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Ok, first, yes it’s my boat.  Not sure why you think it’s not.  I have done all of the work since 2004.  I posted my data in a prior link, so I am not sure what you are looking for.  Engines, transmision, gear, WOT,  etc. 

    Engine’s:  6 CTA 8.3 450 C’s

    WOT 2700 Photo-Tac  Sorry, had 2675, but that was on the gauge.  Not the Photo Tac

    Serial #’s:

    46077285
    46077150

    Props:  22×23.845 #3 Cup

    Michigan Wheels.  Nibral 4 Blades

    Prop Pockets

    Shaft:  Aqua met 22  Dripless.

    ZF 280 Transmissions

    Drive Type:  Straight

    Gear Ratio: 1:483:1

    I cruise about 22-2300 rpm/s.  We have a lift on the back, so the sweet spot varies based wind, tide and so forth.  With the tender on the lift, it’s heavy, 23-24 MPH.  Your water pumps are on the boat, I think I was probably one of the first from boat Diesel.  Even took video on how to do the outboard side and make it less painful.

    The survey lists several problems as you are aware.

    1.  States blown Head Gaskets, both motors.  Don’t believe it.  As you can see from the video, coolant is leaking down from the front while WOT.  Based on my research, which I will confirm tomorrow, there is most likely a leak at the thermostat, as I never have had to add Coolant, Cummins of course, to the engine.  No change in Over Flow tank.  Cant’ even remember the last time I had to put anti-freeze.  There are no oil leaks on either engine.  Plan is to just pressure test the cooling system, should be able to pin point the leaks on both motors.  Right strategy?

    2.  WOT.  States 2700 Starboard and Port 2567.  Spent a lot of money getting the props to 2,700.  Normally I use sync when going on plane, but for the Sea Trial, which I ran the boat, I did not.  I noticed that the Port cable is stretched significantly, so when I was bringing it up even, the port throttle was maybe an inch farther up than Starboard.  This would most likely explain the difference in WOT, so while at the boat, I plan to adjust the linkage, and check the play.  I expect to find that the throttle is not reaching the max.  I am witnerized right now, so running the boat is somewhat limited for another few weeks unless you believe Punsatany Phil.

    3.  After Coolers.  In the pics you will see the pipes are brown, always have been since I bought the boat in 2004.  First thing I did was so the prop work.  Since 2008, we have not used the boat as much as we did in the beginning.  So some years we had less than 20 hours on the motors.  The boat sits in fresh water.  The starboard cooler gets cleaned more than port, logistics and once I had the grease on it, didn’t worry as much.  I find it hard to believe that I have cooler problems.  But here I am limited other than puling them again, even thought the were both out.

    4.  Turbos.  The only problems I have has was when I had turbo lag.  it was really in the first one or two years, and I did what you told me to do with Dawn Dishwasher and distilled water.  Never really had a problem again that I could tell.  I did by gauges to test boost a while back, they are still in the engine room, but connection to the turbo was a problem becasue my lines where not metal.  I think you sent me instructions on how attach, but I wasnt really noticing a problem

    The biggest thing is my buyer hired a guy who is a CAT guy, and is looking for winter work.  I say that because of the heads.  Right now my buyer has a list of this and a nice price tag to pay this guy, but I just don’t trust his reports becasue of the head gasket and he did not bother to check throttle travel.  He’s not a Cummins guy.  He’s a CAT guy that works on other stuff.

    #15377

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Scot,

     

    I’ve read over the “survey” a few times and will comment, eventually.  But before I do, may I ask you 2 things .  Be verbose and tell me as best you can on my concerns.

     

    1) What are your thoughts as to what it says. Address each point he makes as to his recommendations.

     

    2) Why is it, if you have been the operator/owner you have not been able to give me performance numbers based on YOUR OPERATIONAL history?

     

    Tony

     

     

    #15359

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Here are the long awaited results…

    Ok, finally got the survey back.  Here ya go.

    #15312

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Yup, figured that out.  After I renewed for $25 bucks!  Should have just bought a new t-shirt from Brad.  Just got done having a very direct conversation with the buyers broker.  I was supposed to have the numbers from the survey on Friday, they are waiting on an oil sample from blown heads that I don’t have.  Plus, I just changed the oil.  Should be a great test.  Meahwhile I have a delayed close and reminded the broker everyday I pay interest.  In the even it turns out none of these problems exist, who gets to pay?  Never send a CAT mechanic to a Cummins boat, I don’t care what sticker he has on the side of his truck.

    #15281

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Of course I have numbers from the boat.  But it’s what the surveryor is saying about the engine’s are the problem.

    He is stating three problems with the engines.  Head Gaskets, which you can see by the video’s he is wrong.  After Cooler problems, again both sides and Turbo Issues.  So to start narrowing this down, I need his numbers from his Survey.  He did not for example get WOT of 2675.  That is porobably because of cable stretch, which I have to go back down and check.  That would also lead the the low turbo boost on the one engine that was only getting 2550.  He never checked the travel, the reason I know is that bringing the boat up on plane, I normally use the Sync, but what I didn’t the throttles were way off.

    Getting closer?  Still waiting on his numbers so we have data of what the boat normally is, and what he found.

    Engine’s:  6 CTA 8.3 450 C’s

    WOT 2675 Photo-Tac

    Serial #’s:

    46077285
    46077150

    Props:  22×23.845 #3 Cup

    Michigan

    Prop Pockets

    Shaft:  Aqua met 22

    ZF 280 Transmissions

    Drive Type:  Straight

    Gear Ratio: 1:483:1

    #15276

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    So,  you have owned the boat but you cannot supply the info I have requested?  Yet you are asking why you are having these issues and want to know why?    ………………..Now, I am really confused..We are here to help but we are totally blind as we have nothing from you to help tell you why these things are happening..  How could a surveyor know what we need?    Tony   

    #15273

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Yes, I am selling the boat.  The numbers which I don’t have yet are from the buyers surveyor, he obviously down know anything about Cummins.

    #15268

    Rob Schepis
    Forum Moderator
    Vessel Name: Tenacious
    Engines: 6BTA 5.9 330's - "Seaboard Style"
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Country: USA

    A Guess

    My guess is that he is selling the boat and these survey that he speaks of is the surveys being conducted at the buyers expense. This may contain some current data and specs but of course nothing historic and probably no photos of any real use either….

    #15265

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Now I am totally confused…………Are you seling a boat that you have owned for some time or are you buying a boat?  If you are selling a boat that you have owned, why does a survey have anything to do what what I am asking?……………….Un-confuse me!

     

     

    Tony

    #15257

    Scott Woodhouse
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Over Quota
    Engines: 450 C
    Location: Mayland
    Country: USA

    Tony, waiting on survey report from the Marine Surveyor, which is now totally suspect.  If you get a chance, look at the two video’s posted above.  During the Sea Trial, this is a video of both the Port and Starboard engine having leaking Head Gaskets.  If you look carefully, you will see why a Caterpillar guy who works on “everything” has not business being on my boat.

    He also screwed up the Turbo and After Coolers.  Pics attached.  I contacted the selling broker directly and very nicely told them that I was not paying to have my boat surveryed due to the impentcy of their surveryor.  My broker showed the video the next day to a Marine Surveyor who is a Cummin’s guy, and laughed.  You will too.  After coolers you will see look pretty good.  Least in my humble opinoion.  Only 750 hours on the boat.  So there has been a delay in getting this report because the mechanic is walking back at least the Head claims for now. 

    #15255

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Scott,  

    Are you going to post historic performance data including WOT RPM vessel speeds from before & now, cruise RPM’s from before vs now, prop information, gear ratio, boost numbers, etc etc etc?.   Are you going to post pics of the engines installation from all angles & perspectives,  and of the exhaust system? Got any good pictures of your aftercooler cores when you had it apart?    No not can even come close to helping you with a lot more info..   Tony        

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