[Larry aberg]

The attached photo has the oil filter at 90degrees and the available pto flange. The units I have do not have this.

Do I modify my units and change the assembly maybe not possible?

Maybe I have to replace my zf 301a transmissions.  I have 2000 hours on these and the Cummins 6CTA 8.3 M3 motors.

 

I am looking at hydraulic actuators for stabilization so the reason for hydraulic driven pump.  I see other ideas from your tips on pto assemblies.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Larry aberg]

The hydronic pre-heat unit works great it takes 20 minutes to circulate the engine coolant through the heat exchanger and the engine is up at approximately 150 degrees F.

 

no more smoke at start up!

it took 2days for the install mounting the heat exchangers and installing mini valves and new hoses plus the electrical wiring and switches. I can post pics if anyone is interested.

 

I had all the equipment purchased 10 years ago when we installed the hydronic boiler system no there was no expense currently other than my cheap labor.

 

[Larry aberg]

We keep our boat at 50f all winter so its natural to turn off the electric pad heaters and circulate some warm water thru the engines.

Compared to the lifep04 battery system and charging via alternator this is low technology. I will let you know if it was worth it.

 

Larry

[Larry aberg]

I installed the updated hydraulic system new ram, helm pump, 3/8″ hydraulic hoses and Accusteer PA35.The PA 35 is a nice power assist pump albeit not cheap. Doubling for the auto pilot pump also. The adjustment pots are very sensitive and you can dial in how much assist you desire very easy to adjust. Very quiet unit when operating. I have the gain on the unit set at 52% presently.  This gives the feel of the BOAT in power assist mode similiar to the un-assisted mode without any force needed to move the wheel.  Really helps steering when up on step and big water conditions. The rest of the story has to do with the manufacture lack of attention to detail during assembly of the steering system.   I pulled the boat out of the water this past summer and removed the rudder tie bar. I found out that the starboard rudder did not move even when trying to leg press it. Port rudder moved easily. The starboard rudder upper bearing was 1/4″ out of plumb and the assembler forced the 1.5″ rudder shaft to fit the bearing causing it to bind.  It was an easy fix to ream out the aluminum channel .25″ and free up the rudder.  Took me 30 mins. Over the years the bearing was scarred and required replacement along with straightening the rudder shaft.   Works great now      

[Larry aberg]

Still working on fixing my steering system, back on it shortened rudder connecting bar 3″ to straighten out rudder geometry. existing cylinder ram is weeping fluid now so replacement is imminent. Here are some questions I have:

I like the Accusteer PA 35 power assist and auto pilot pump. Do you have experience with this pump?

The output flow rate spec says 3.5cu in/s

recommended cylinder capacity 35-60 cu in

I am looking at the HC 200B7 or HC 200B9 16 cu in and 20.5 cu in displacement cylinders to suit my torque requirements. Do I need to increase the size of this to satisfy the PA 35 requirements?

They are smaller than the recommended cylinder capacity size of the PA35.

the cylinder output flow rate is adjustable as a percentage of overall flow rate, I believe, on the PA 35.

what would your recommendation be for cylinder ram with the PA 35 I need approximately 1200ft lbs prefer 7″ stroke. Installed 3/8″ ID Parker MSH-6 hose rated 1000psi no elbows only straight fittings.

1.7 cu in helm pump existing. 15″ wheel existing.

Thanks for help, trying to avoid making a large mistake with this upgrade.

Larry

[Larry aberg]

Hi Rob, that was my guess also due to the electrical wires. It looks like it is setup to use keel cooling which I do not have and I need to convert back to non keel cooler.

Do I keep it or discard? Would this be common to keel cooler setup or independent?

[Larry aberg]

Very poor installation. I am assuming both rudders should be straight no toe in toe out?

I will need to shorten the tie bar to get rid of the 12 degree offset.

Once this is done, might be difficult to remove the bar without floor removal i can take a look at what I have.

I will also start installation of new hydraulic lines

[Larry aberg]

6-9/16″ center line of rudder shaft to centeriine of ram attachment.

Re-measured rudder angles with a bitmore accuracy. When full port 45 degrees on port rudder. Starboard rudder at 33 degrees.

Manufacturer says that is close to their setup th he inside rudder has a tighter turning radius than outside rudder.

Sorry for the late response.

[Larry aberg]

I will get those center line dimensions this weekend.

When hard to port, the port rudder is 45 + degrees but the starboard rudder is 29 +/- degrees.

Hard to starboard the dimensions flop port rudder is 29 +/- and starboard rudder 45.

The tie bar adjustments are max in the shortest dimension. Looks like the bar might be too long? I

[Larry aberg]

The existing ram has 7″ stroke and is half the torque I need. On the sbmar website a 1200 ft lb 7″ stroke seafirst ram doesnt exist. The closest one has a 9″ stroke.

Do they make a 1200 ft lb 7″ stroke ram? If not what options do I have?

Add second ram on the starboard rudder or use a 9 ” version.

[Larry aberg]

Thanks Tony,

The existing helm pump is 21 years old, i would feel better to upgrade it also since everything else is
going to be new.

Would you stay with the same manufacturer say Kobelt for the helm pump and cylinder or use a seastar with a accusteer PA35 power assist/auto pilot pump.

If we go with a new helm pump what size would be ideal?

I will check on the rudder shaft dimension next time at the boat.

Whats the ballpark pricing on the PA 35 accusteer pump.

Larry

[Larry aberg]

Attached is the layout of the rudder assembly from Carver.

Should give you a good idea of what we are working on.

When I take my phone camera down there they all come out out of focus too close for the lens.

I’ll work on getting a different camera.

[Larry aberg]

I have attached the rudder dimensions and my rudder torque calculation.
It looks like with twin rudders I can get up to approx 14,000 in lbs.

IHow would the helm pump sizing change if wewere to use a hydraulic DC pack?

The routing of new lines might be interesting. I’m assuming you want me to use the copper lines since they do not expand during pressure. It might be difficult or impossible to installl copper tubing w/o kinking.

I’ll get the pics of the ram and rudders this weekend.

[Larry aberg]

Hi Tony,

Yes I know its undersized, now we need to come up with a system plan helm pump, ram, hoses. Auto pilot pump and fittings that will work long term.

The helm diameter can be increased quite a bit. What kind of diameter are you thinking about?

I will get some better pictures of the ram setup. Its in the aft cabin and not a whole lot of room.

How about power assist electro/hydraulic pumps? I saw some of these on the seastar home page?

I will also take a look at how the factory routed the hydraulic lines.

[Larry aberg]

Finally was abke to get some of the i fo sorry for the lag time.

The wheel is 15″ diameter, the hydraulic lines are 3/8″ O.D. the rram is a SeastarHC5314 7″ stroke, 10.2 cu. In. Torque at 1000psi @35degrees is 7117in/lbs.

The helm pump is 1.7cu in. Seastatar.

The auto pilot pump has no tags on iit. Picture provided.

[Larry aberg]

We replaced shafts and props all work great. Completed 1200 mile cruise this summer north. Vibrations are all gone.

My vibration issues were not related to the old shafts but inadequate installation by the previous boatyard. After we hauled the boat we removed the prop nuts maybe 40 ft lbs of torque but they looked like they were on the shaft. The couplings nuts insude engine room were next and i was able to remove them with my finger’s no torque on them. The couplings fell off the shafts when i pulled the nut.
Needless to say i was a bit pissed at previously paying top dollar for the installation and to find this one year later.
We installed all new equipment and with the help of Tony’s article “Big nut little nut” and this Forum. The yard did frown on the installation using epoxy on the nuts as well as the big nut first! Oh well, i dont trust boatyards anyway.

[Larry aberg]

Hi Rob,

If this was a new build what is the process of calculating the size of the steering components like the ram, helm pump, auto pilot pump?

Are there specific formulas used to calculate the loads on the steering system

Larry

[Larry aberg]

This is a factory boat no extension by me. I believe the factory added the cockpit from their model w/o and came up with this model.
7.5 turns on thd wheel full stbd to full port.
The helm pump is a seastar 1.7L model. I will get some pics of the hydraulic lines and ram setup.

The AP holds rudder but during ocean conditions cannot turn the rudder to hold a straight course. The Ap during high stress times sounds very loud

[Larry aberg]

Hi Rob the AP cannot move the rudders to the full max position

[Larry aberg]

Good shaft no high spots

[Author]

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