Tide Sureseals leak

[lawrencekahlden]

I noticed my bilge taking on some extra water. Seems to be getting worse as I am hearing the bilge start more frequently. I identified a leak in the seal on the shaft of the port motor. At first it seemed to drip every 10 seconds but when the boat rocked a bit it was faster. And the engine is off. I called one of the mechanics at the marina at the end of the canal and of course he told me they would take the boat out and about 8 hours labor and new seals and suggested I do both of them. Called marine max and quoted the same. Thru my research I know there is an extra lip seal on the shaft. Too hard for me to get to. I attached a video showing the leak at its worst. Again not when the engine is on. I am wondering if it is something I can get a mobile mechanic to come by and replace the lip seal and if that would do it. Or does it look like a worse problem.? I have read all the threads on here and it seems the lip seal may do it. So looking at a few hundred in labor versus 5k and doing both. 500 hours on the engines.

Topic

[lawrencekahlden]

In the past few years I have used my boat less than the first 10 yeras or so. Yesterday I started the boat to see the difference in the leak when running. It was quite a bit more and seemed to be “spitting it out” more forward than just dripping downward. I did find a guy who is experienced in this problem and repair. He will be here Tuesday or Wednesday coming up. I still think he will have a problem getting to it just becuase getting a visual of the spare is hard as it is very close to out of view. Also have the screws rusted? In a few places on my boat there has been some rusted bolts I had to uce vice grips on. Salt water sucks! But I guess I will spend a few hundred to try and save 5k for the short term. I know long term I should probably get the shafts pulled and reconditioned. But with the lack of income due to this virus plus spending 35k on the new seawall I just need to try and save a bit. But then again saving a little could cost me long term as the past has shown Just sucks all around

[Tony Athens]

Burping a shaft seal

I think that “saying” may have its roots in some early design of dripless seals that did not use a positive water feed.. An example would be early PSS seals used on slow boats.. When 1st put in the water, no water would make it up to the seal thru the shaft tube or log.. You had to split the faces to “get rid of the air-lock” in the tube or log….Hence the term “BURP” …………….In the case of the Tides seal shown it the pic and its hook-up/plumbing, 100% yes you are right–there is nothing to burp or even a PRACTICAL way to do it if the water feed is working..

One more thing about a Tides lip seal……………….I have a few commercial boats that I take care on in my area that use them.. All of them work close to year around ( 1500 hours a year or so) and they to not just “sit at the dock” for months at a time…………………..Lip seals by design rely on the quality on the shaft surface where the LIP RIDES.. All types on the SS alloys used for shafting are susceptible to varying degrees of crevice corrosion and oxygen starvation corrosion when something is touching the shaft (like under a packing or where the “lip of the seal sits without use)…………………….Hang a 3-8” cut off of AQ 22 under the water at your dock ( salt water) with one rubber band around it–Look at it 1 yr later–Under the rubber band will be a corroded groove..

Moral of the story–The commercial guys like them as they use the boat that and used enough that the shaft surface does not corrode quickly. .. IMO, Sitting at the dock in this case–his shaft surface in that area is “done’–That’s my 2-bits worth….

[Fireisland1]

there is no such thing as ‘burping a seal ‘ . You are simply trying to fix a bad installation

[BrisHamish]

That is interesting to know re the ‘red hat tool’ Rob. I am not disagreeing.

FWIW, when we last hauled my boat and replaced the seals (and replaced the spare seals as well at the same time) – just a preventative thing as they were all about 10 yrs old – one of the new seals leaked when we refloated. The Tides guy took the ‘red hat tool’ and pushed it in against the leaking seal to ‘burp’ it (that was the wording he used). A little bit of water came out as he pressed the tool into the seal, and then when he removed the tool the leak stopped and has never returned. I watched him do it.

Hence my post, just for what it is worth.

[Rob Schepis]

lawrencekahlden wrote:

I spoke with Tides. The red hat tool is only if you pull the shaft off. If the shaft stays together you cannot use the tool he said. It is only if you are installing it initially? Is that your understanding also?

That is exactly right and is why I posted what I did above.

[lawrencekahlden]

Firehoser
Just saw your message. The boat is 2007 and I bought it new pretty much. Marine Max had used it for a lead boat for their excursions so it had about 25 hours on it. So nothing had been replaced and all is original. Yea if they haul it out that is $560 so not so bad. Then of course the labor. At that time I guess they can get a look. I just dont trust some people. They are all salesmen over the phone. So I may waste the 300 or so but I have a bad feeling with my luck of late that it wont solve the problem. But my diver had the same issue and it worked. I will have to figure it out soon. Thanks for the response.

[lawrencekahlden]

I spoke with Tides. The red hat tool is only if you pull the shaft off. If the shaft stays together you cannot use the tool he said. It is only if you are installing it initially? Is that your understanding also?

[firehoser75]

Lawrence,
Sorry to hear about all of your issues lately and you are right Covid Sucks!
With only 500 hours on your engines, I would not expect that your Cutlass bearings would need replacement due to wear. However, we don’t know the age of the boat or if they have already been replaced, so they could be in “replacement” shape due to corrosion?? While hauled, check them out as best you can.
Phil nailed it in his responses and your last post is what I might try were I in your position. Just be prepared (mentally) that the new seal may not be the answer (if the prop shaft is not in mint condition where the seal sits) and you may have to haul out again and do the “complete” job. Personally, and based on your description of access to the seal, I would haulout even for the “easy” job of just using the “back up” seal. It would give “peace of mind”.
Good luck,
Tom

[lawrencekahlden]

Thanks for all the replies. I have talked to a few people locally and the bids are 4-6k plus tax as some are saying recondition the shafts and props. But after talking to my diver who cleans my bottom he had the same exact issue with his boat and used the spare and it took care of his problem. He never took it out of the water. I have had no vibrations and the boat runs smooth at my cruising speed or idle. My normal trips are intercoastal and some Gulf. I do about 50 hours a year usually when guests are in town or my wife and I do our weekend marina trips down the coast. So I am strongly leaning toward maybe doing the seal first and if it doesnt solve the problem then I wasted a few hundred labor instead of immediately spending 5k.

Also one other thing. The boatyard down at the end of the canal just did my bottom paint job this summer. I am sure they would have noticed damaged props or tried to sell me more services. This whole deal sucks. Mainly because the pandemic kiled all of my income and I have spent 15k already and just replaced my seawall to the tune of 35500. So 50k spent in savings.

[Rob Schepis]

BrisHamish wrote:

…Tides have a special tool (its a plastic three quarter circular thing that you clip over the shaft) to ‘burp’ the new seal once it is in place. It takes less than 15 seconds to do it.

Good luck.

Hamish.

The plastic red hat tool that tides provides is to protect the lip seal when the shaft is slid through so the keyway in the shaft does not damage the seal

[Clark Leighs]

My two bits worth. If the boat is out and the prop is off get it checked.
It is amazing sometimes how little it takes to tweak a prop blade. Your light grounding may have done more than you realize.

Of course budget will play in here but at the very least take a GOOD HARD look at it on a flat bench and do some measurements and close examinations for any sign or a tweak.

[lawrencekahlden]

No noticeable vibration. Yea he did mention about the difficulty of pulling it off or not Said he has seen where they practically have to burn it off in bad cases but sometimes not so hard. So kind of matching up wth what you said. So he sounds the best although it is a 45 min ride there whereas the other people are right down at the end of my canal so a 5 minute ride. But they are way backed up and I dont want to wait too long
Thanks for the feeback!

[Philip]

It’s really a time/materials job. Depending on access and luck, sometimes the coupler comes right apart and the shaft pops right off the coupler. Sometimes that can take a bit longer with some choice words and bloody knuckles!

This is not a rocket science repair so any reputable boat yard can do it and there is no shortcuts or less expensive options.

Choose a place that you feel comfortable with and communicate well with along with recommendations and reputation.

Do you have any vibration when running ?

Phil

[lawrencekahlden]

So in talking to a couple of local repair places who are pretty respected both mention if the shafts have never been pulled in 12 years it probably needs to be done. I tried to not say much but just listened so I would not say anything “dumb” as I feel that is when they get you. The average estimate was about 1000 each side pulling the shafts and then the cost of the seals. Then of course 14$ per foot to pull the boat out. I am wondering if that sounds fair?

[lawrencekahlden]

I saw this video which is how I found out the info I had gathered. When I said grounded out I meant hit some sand. Just went slightly off course while paying attn to something else for a bit. But it was soft sand and came right out of it. No vibrations or issues since I just happen to think about it when I saw the leak.

As to some of the other responses I read about that “tool” I was under the impression it was on the shaft somehwere but maybe I am wrong.

I am thinking I need to do a short haul also. Getting to the spare and even trying to remove the screws will be almost difficult unless you are a jockey sized person. Hate to spend the cash as it has been an expensive year and on top of that earning no income due to the damn virus crap hurts some. At least I have enough knowledge not to get ripped off.

I do have one question. If the boat is out of water and the lip seal gets replaced will there be anyway to determine the issue is fixed without putting it back in the water? I dont have any flushout system on the boat.

[Fireisland1]

It is sometimes very difficult to slide in the new seal. I had a Searay that was impossible. Had to do a quick short haul. When I removed the seal housing , the new seal had to be pressed in with a good deal of pressure. Not sure why but it was impossible to do in the boat.

[BrisHamish]

Make sure the guy you get to do the job ‘burps’ the new seal after it is installed. Failure to do so may cause the new seal to drip as well.

Tides have a special tool (its a plastic three quarter circular thing that you clip over the shaft) to ‘burp’ the new seal once it is in place. It takes less than 15 seconds to do it.

Good luck.

Hamish.

[Philip]

You mentioned you “grounded out”… does that mean you hit bottom? Do you have any vibrations?

Check this video out…

Phil

[lawrencekahlden]

Ok thanks. I figured that would be the answer. A little out of my league to do because I am too big to get down there and do the job. I will find a local mobile guy to take a shot at a couple of hundred dollars and see if it can be done. I was quoted 8 hours each shaft plus parts etc so about 4-5k for the total job which is about what you described. The boat is 13 years old in used years so I know some things go wrong. Just replaced after coolers surprisingly they lasted that long in salt water. But this leak is getting worse as you could see if you saw the video. I am guessing only a few gallons of water will come out while doing this first job. I sure dont know what caused it. I did ground out once so maybe that was it. I appreciate the response.

[Philip]

If the extra lip seal is present (an option on the Tideseal) then it’s worth a shot and can be done in the slip. Probably 2 hours labor. The success will depend on why the present seal went bad. If there is an issue with the shaft where the seal rests then the replacement will most likely have similar issues.

If you have to go tot the next step then I would certainly replace both seals and put new backup seals in the spare seal protective carrier. Again if the replacement seal is in good condition and did not seal simply replacing seals does no good, you have to address the shaft or seal housing. Removing the shaft means remove prop, undo shaft coupling, undo shaft from coupling and slide it out, repair/replace shaft. Sometimes a longer hose on the stern tube will allow the seal to ride on a different area of the shaft. Installation is the reverse and includes new shaft seals etc and a good engine alignment is a must.

And as long as it’s out of the water double check the cutlass bearing. If the shaft comes out now would be the time to replace that.

That leak will not get better and when the shaft turns it will start to spray water around the engine room causing further issues.

Start with using the spare seal and see what that does… let us know.

Phil

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