ok , I have a few issues going on

[Dalton]

So I decided to take a day and work on the boat. I set out to do a fresh water flush using (sea flush) which is like a funnel (which sits in the sea strainer) and hose that goes into a big bucket. I run the engines and generator and it sucks up the fresh water and I shut it down. 5 gallon bucket for each one.

So….first up is starboard side. I get it all setup, goto flybridge and start it. Run down and water has barely moved. It’s moving, but takes about a full minute or minute 1/2 to go thru 5 gallons. For all I know this is normal.

Go to port side. Same thing but this time it sucks up 5 gallons in about 5-7 seconds.  Which I already realized I ran the impeller dry for 10-15 seconds by the time I could run up and turn the key off. I now know this is how fast it supposed to suck up water and something is clogged on my starboard side.

Both engines have the seamax pumps from 3 months ago. I guess I need to replace the impeller on the one that ran dry for 10-20 seconds.  ??

So there is some issue with my SB side and I’m guessing the heat exchanger is plugged up. Coincidentally this same side threw an alarm one time when I ran at 2000rpm for a bit but the temp gauge was at a steady 175. F it hasn’t done it since.  I thought it was a loose or bad sensor at the time.

Also, this same side needs a new riser (which I have in a box) and probably needs turbo rebuilt as the housing is showing some corrosion. When I changed the zincs I used an inspection camera and the aftercooler looked perfect inside. If this is any indication! So I’m assuming heat exchanger is the cause.

New raw water pumps, impellers, aftercooler looks good. Odds are its heat exchanger! (by the way, my generator heat exchanger was almost fully plugged up but I fixed that)

So I’m guessing I need to stop running the engine as of now! Remove riser and turbo. Send turbo to get rebuilt. While off, clean heat exchanger since its right there! Replace impeller on port side since it ran dry for 10-20 seconds.

Then once together test water flow with engine running. Then at some point work on aftercoolers.

Anything I am  missing? sorry for long post.

Topic

[Dalton]

Here’s a pic I just ran across. This shows the angle of the exhaust. Still not sure if thats acceptable, 15 degree or more but looks decent. The water line is about 4-5 inches above the bottom of the fuel tank.
The exhaust “shower” is about 3 inches past the clamps on the very left.

Yeah, they had plenty of room to make the riser even higher. Probably 8+ inches more room above it.

[james]

Fuel filtration modification

Ken – As you have a lot going on with the boat, here is another modification which can make life with it a lot easier. If you have Racor’s, dump them and put in one of Tony’s filtration packages. They make servicing significantly easier and protect your engine better. Below is my system. There is a mud filter, followed by a 5 or 10 micron, then the on-engine last chance system. The spin on filters are much easier to replace than Racor elements, especially if you have a low overhead environment.

Another element to consider is Remote Oil filter kite installation for the engine with the filter on the outboard side. I don’t have photo’s of that, but in my installation, port engine is within a few inches of a wing tank. Oil filter change on that side was a nightmare. I bought a filter relocation kit from Tony and moved the filter to a bulk head with easy access.

My approach in general is anything I work on, I try to make it easier to work on the next time!

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Dalton

[Dalton]

Thanks James. Thats exactly what I will do. I’ll find a shop that can do it! I’d feel better if it were welded in or there was a nut on the inside.

[james]

flushing system

Below is a picture of my flushing system. For some reason the insertion into the site here caused it to rotate 90 to the left, but I think you can see what was done. Very straight forward to have it done. Good luck

[Dalton]

Donald, to reply to your post about the impeller/intake hose. At the time I noticed low flow I was at idle but also had the sea strainer open, a funnel inside with a tube to a bucket. (google seaflush system) At idle it took several minutes to suck up 5 gallons. I am convinced it just wasn’t primed…having an open strainer,funnel, tube in bucket ,etc

So when I removed the hose after the water pump, the water flow at idle was like a fire hose! filled up the bucket in seconds. Now if it took several minutes to fill up the bucket just as it did to empty it then I would know the intake hose is clogged. But water came gushing out like crazy! at idle.

Theres no obstructions at each end of the aftercooler and its very clean and clear. Heat exchanger looks perfect. All hoses in between look fine. So I believe it was just a priming issue and I will check again when all together. I’ll compare both engines (exhaust flow) at around 1500rpm at the dock.

[Dalton]

I can’t say for sure that mine is or isn’t 15 degrees. I know it’s probably close though so it’s on the cusp. Previous owner just replaced the riser on the port side and I got a new one for $1200 starboard side. So even if I’m not at 15 degrees and it’s not optimum I won’t pay the thousands to redo it all. I have too much money into it already and have yet to even enjoy the boat. My goal was to have fun with a boat, not to become a weekend mechanic and at some point I have to draw the line. So far, all I do is spend weekends wrenching away wondering wth am I doing. And I know I’m asking for it with that statement but to be honest I may have this boat another 2 years and move onto something else at this rate. If it lasted 17 years this way it can easily last another decade and I will fresh water flush for sure! No question there. May get 20+ years out of it.

I’ve done a TON of reading these past few months and read quite a bit on exhaust design. I know the issues and what should be done , etc I’ve learned a ton!
My main goal right now is to get on this boat and not worry about going 30-60 miles & breaking down. So I’m going thru literally everything! Down to light bulbs and cabinet hatches.

My plan now. Take apart the turbo for possible rebuild or buy a new one.
Put on new riser (I will measure angle just to see)
change oil – put in right amount. Install envirovent system
install fresh water flush valve/fitting on strainer.

last step, Try to enjoy my boat for the summer.

[james]

You can find a competent mechanic to do the work strainer modification for not too much money, or even better yet, take the lid off and take to a plumbing shop and have them do it for you. I’ll try and post some pictures to illustrate what I’ve done. New computer has my data spread out a bit.

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Dalton

[donald roth]

I agree 100% with James about the importance of a fresh water flush. Your riser/mixer configuration is just wrong, but would have lasted longer with a fresh water flush following every use. The turbo would likely not exhibit rust either.

You need to read Tony’s advice elsewhere on this site and on boatdiesel.com, he has much to say about exhaust design and its relationship to gravity.

Again, regarding the impeller bits in the intake side, even though you determined that you have adequate flow at idle, that is low flow, likely won’t pull enough water to suck all the debris to the pump inlet. Mr Murphy says that the worst that can happen will happen at the worst time, so be ready for it to clog up when you’re running the inlet on a bad day at WOT.
Do yourself a favor, drop the intake hose…

[Rob Schepis]

Put an angle finder on it. Here’s my before and after and my turbo housings were not pretty. The cummins install specs calls for a min of 15 degrees, but we all know that just because it’s printed by Cummins it’s not gospel in the real world..

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Dalton

[Dalton]

Thanks Rob and James

yeah, its a lot of sitting around that’s for sure! We actually had to change the oil when doing oil samples because the salt air affected the oil. From what I was told, everything collected this residue on the walls and when the motor ran it mixed with oil and gave odd oil readings when tested. So they changed the oil and ran the boat for 5 hours and tested and samples were fine. It makes me wonder if thats the flaking on the turbo.

Also read on another old post that carbon build up could be from over propping and i know my boat is over propped.

But as far as the riser location/angle. The shower actually does face down quite a bit. My previous picture was probably a bad angle but I can take another. And it sits at least 20 inches above the water line. Probably more.

But Rob,it makes perfect sense what you said.

James, I’ve already started fresh water flushing. I bought the seaflush system which is a bit of a hassle (funnels and buckets) but it works. I’d like to tap into the strainer and do it that way. Not sure if I trust myself to do that on something so vital but possibly.

[james]

While you have all this work going on, I would highly recommend that you spend a few bucks and install a freshwater flushing system. That way, when your boat is sitting it’s a pool of fresh water near the turbo’s rather than salt water. That project pays for itself in about 1 year with savings on zincs. It’s very easy to do, drill and tap the top of your strainer and put some fittings on it and your ready to go. After every running with my engines, I give each about a 10 minute flush with fresh water from the dock hose. That equates to about 100 gallons of fresh water running through the system.

Good luck.

[Rob Schepis]

Turbo, continued

Ken if I recall from prior photos your showerhead was flat coming off the riser. You want it steep & angled down so the water runs away from the turbo as fast as possible on shutdown. I don’t think your turbo was on a “daily” diet of seawater as it could look way worse with scaling etc but it could look better so it’s had it’s taste of seawater over time. Like Tony said, “under certain conditions..”

Furthermore, 18 years and only 500 running hours is A LOT of sitting at the dock. So a salty air moist environment that is allowed to sit and sit and sit and do it’s thing on the cast iron and the fact that the usage is so low it does not get the needed run time to dry and blow it all out. Like that “extra” car that sits in the driveway with the exhaust system, brake lines and frame rusting away because it does not get it’s regular 50mph blow dry. This may change with a new owner and it may get much more use but a freshwater flush setup and Wolverines 24/7 would be a good addition.

That oil was not from a poor ccv setup, maybe too much oil in the pan and slobber around the air clip?

[Dalton]

So, thinking about salt water sitting in the turbo I figured the bottom of my riser would also hold water. Especially since it has this big lip and opens up. It’s like a cup sitting there. Attached is a picture where water would sit in the riser. To my surprise, no rust at all. Not even where water would gather that wouldn’t make it over the lip….. ?

also, took another photo of the turbo but this time farther away. I also ran my finger around it and those ‘gold flakes’ came off in one very light pass. I barely pressed. It was like rust dust sitting there. What this means, not sure. Notice the carbon build up doesn’t look so bad in this picture because of the angle.

anyway, I’ll take it apart soon and inspect.

[Dalton]

Tony, I appreciate the wisdom and I’m not sure why you would think I won’t believe something. Keep in mind, I have an untrained eye and if I knew this stuff I wouldn’t be here. This is my first marine diesel engine and the first time I ever touched a turbo in my life. I’m merely asking experts for some advice and also spending my dollars on this site.

Anyway, I compared pictures side by side to see the difference (so I can learn). My picture is clearer and zoomed in more so when I photoshopped it to match your picture the “raised bumps” looked identical or very very close. I’ll take the turbo apart and peek inside. As of now the blade clearance looks ok, shaft doesn’t wobble, spins free.

I ordered your Environvent system and will drain/add new oil to make sure my engine doesn’t have too much causing seepage out of the turbo. I spoke with one of your guys there and he said don’t rely on the dipstick, make sure it has 13qts. No more.

if I take the turbo apart and see more damage I may just replace it. That was really my question here. Is it fixable, rebuildable, trash, or its totally fine. Again, I’m not an expert and don’t pretend to be. I’m trying to save some money and enjoy my boat.

Also, I thought the flange bolts were so tough to remove because of high heat and age. That’s how it is on my old car exhaust system that never sees salt water. But I’m new to the marine stuff so pretty much everything I decide is a rough educated guess….hence me posting questions.

[Tony Athens]

Only 500 hours and it has pretty heavy raised bumps under the light carbon and fresh rust dots on the surface of that carbon, and you are asking what is going on?

I can’t help, if you cannot see that that your exhaust design is allowing water to get back into you turbo under certain conditions..

When you pull the turbo apart, you’ll see more evidence behind the titanium heat shield and on the shaft.

A turbo that does not see water never looks like yours, even 30,000 hours later and over a 10+ year period.. It’s that simple.

But with that said, you can believe what you want..

Just ask yourself this–Why to you think you had so much trouble removing the flange bolts?

Tony

[Dalton]

Mine doesn’t look a whole lot different other than the goldish flakes here and there. What I am missing? is this turbo shot? keep in mind, its 18 years old but only 500 hours.

[Tony Athens]

This is real simple..

Look at your picture and the picture of a 33000 hour turbo with a wet exhaust with a lift muffler about 3 ft from the mixer… You tell me what’s has been going on at times . Not terrible like some, but the picture tells it all..

Tony

[Dalton]

Anyone? The turbo exhaust side look ok??

So here’s my dilemma. Surveyor said turbo smokes at full throttle. You can see the oil at the bottom. it’s just seapage, never really blew oil anywhere. It only has 500 hours on it. No way should it need a rebuild or even touched from what I’ve read/seen so far. I thought oil leak meant bad seal but it could be a number of other things and the turbo looks fine inside. Blades spin freely, doesn’t look eroded.

Same surveyor said pin holes in the mixing elbow but I just don’t see any evidence of that either. I’m replacing it anyway since the port side was just done & maybe there is the start of an issue.

But I’m stuck on the turbo. Could be the drain tube isn’t draining properly, excessive blow by, plugged up air filter, and I’m thinking of getting the Envirovent CCV system since it may help it all breath (and comes with new air filter)

Should I leave the turbo alone? See the pictures in the above post.
I wanna get this boat back together!

[Dalton]

Attached are the exhaust side pics. I got one bolt out after using PB blaster, torch, hammering, etc and the other 3 no luck at all. I had to grind the heads off and now I can work on getting those out. Maybe weld a nut to the stud and remove.

Anyway, i ‘think’ the turbo looks ok. Not really sure. Notice my 3rd picture where it shows the oil around the outside. THis is why I removed it to begin with. I think a seal is bad inside???
I may buy a HX40 rebuilt kit and attempt it. (even tho this is a hx40m) Did a lot of reading on it and it shouldn’t need balancing as long as I mark a few things to line it all up again. And I think the Marine version just has an extra seal compared to the hx40.

or is a sign of oil something worse and don’t waste my time with it?

[james]

Good luck with the bolts, mine ultimately had to be cut off. Who ever configured the interface between the exhaust and the turbo should be forced to service one in the field.

I’ve ended up building a tool for future work. We took an old crescent wrench and welded it to a 10 mm six point socket, this gives you a much better lever arm for getting bolt to move. Try all the tricks, penetrating oil, heat, patience.

When you reassemble get new bolts, and put antisieze on them. Then as a proactive measure, back them out every six months or so and put them back in. That outboard side of the turbo is something you want to be able to inspect periodically.

Good luck.

[Author]

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