CAT C-12 ACERT RE-MAN OIL ANALYSIS

[Rich Wood]

Installed one year ago on a 38 Wesmac bridge Downeaster. Multiple issues with control panels, shut off switches, the ECM module (replaced twice) – all covered under warranty but a lot of downtime. Charter boat,  800 hours, always ran boat 60% +/- load, probably 500 of these hours drifting, 600-700 rpm’s. Current issue – aft starboard oil leak, plus HIGH metal content via most recent oil analysis. CAT has not yet looked at oil leak, as we are “negotiating” next steps – replace engine or warranty extension. What say you? Based on oil sample I’m thinking something bad is on the near horizon.

Topic

[Rich Wood]

Thank you

Yes, in their hands really, one person versus large corporation. You have given me more data to fight the fight, “why did you ok the engine when it didn’t meet your guidelines etc”. Even with replacement engine, still have that base design, so still need to pitch down and baby her, which I think I do anyways. Long odds to get replacement, but if they give me 4 more years warranty at least that covers repair costs, but not downtime. I’ll keep documenting, if engine goes south, at least I have data, plus triple damages in Mass. if negligence is proven – for example, claim CAT knew what was going on but did not address it properly. If it gets worse, and CAT is faced with that, maybe I can get something.

 

Best case right now is they look at oil leak, oil analysis, fix whatever it is, give me four more years warranty. <br /><br />

Thanks for the help, guidance, education – will keep you posted.

[Tony Athens]

Rich,

 

You are at a point to where only CAT can solve what ever is going on with your engine.. You have made a major investemnt in them, tried as best you could to follow there “guidenace”, so you are really in their hands as to how you get past the situaltion youe are in.  Understand that in  their “eyes”, from what you have posted, you did  everything right.. In my eyes, you went with a base  engine design that was not up to the task from the day as it came off the assemply line.  History has shown that without any doubt.. Beween the 3196 and C-12, how many years was that from Day One until CAT finially  walked away?  Think about it..  Mid-sized engines like the Cat 3406 (became a world class C-18)  and the 3208 lasted for  4+ decades… They’re are base designs,  and they’re are   base engine designs .     The Cat 3116, 3126, C-7 and 3176 all went south or “extinct” early on.  ASK YOURSELF WHY? What can I say other that history says it all…  IMO, CAT designs  for mid-range  engines went  south  for about 20 yrs during the 80 & 90’s and they are  just  now starting to be back to the designs  that made CAT, CAT!…………………………….  IMO, the ACCERT thing , in its infancy, did them in………They were too hard headed to  accept CR technology for about 20 yrs..  Prop down  is all you can really do and ask lsss from your engine so you can buy some time..  Keep us posted as to what CAT says & does..   Tony        

[Rich Wood]

Trying to absorb all this

Thanks for your patience, and time.

Ok, I follow the prop demand numbers. At 1800 I should be 15.9gph, 48% load, but,  fully loaded with fuel etc., at 1800 I am at 18gph, maybe 19 at times, and showing 58-60% load – pretty big difference. And I also understand it’s better to be above the rated 2300, by 50-100, than under the 2300. When we did the sea trial we only got 2225, so re-pitched it an inch, expecting 100 rpm, but only got to 2293, but cat dealer said ok and started clock on warranty. Should they have said no, take more pitch out until we reach the chart numbers?

I have no issue re-pitching some more, if your experience/knowledge says this will increase rpm to get speed, and pump more oil, air, and coolant – which you say is better for the engine.

‘’Rating? D or E?  I run 700-800 hrs a year. Most trips I run 58-60% 30-45 minutes, then for 2-3 hours 600-800 rpm, fishing, then the same 58-60% 30-45 minutes to get back to the dock. Then an hour later I do it again. About 125x a season, then a lot of 2 hour harbor cruise trips at 600 +/- rpm. Seldom anything else, maybe 10 times a season wide open for 30 seconds or so. 

So the big question – with this bad oil sample, and aft starboard oil dripping leak, and running it at how the wheel has been set, rpm’s/load, etc, should I be ultra concerned that something has damaged the internals to this engine? 

I can re-pitch etc etc going forward, but has the damage been done? I would rather get things done now, versus mid season and lose revenue.

thanks 

 

 

[Tony Athens]

Rich,   I have attached the factory spec sheet on your engine.. Notice the RED squares—— Cat does a good job laying it all out and showing exactly where this engine should operate at various RPM load levels.. Keep in mind that CAT does not specify load percentages although you seem to be fixated on that.. But since you are into % numbers, this is what your computer is telling you and what that means. 

 

Let’s use your cruise 1800 RPM as an example– Cat data shows the engine load to 15.9 GPH making 336HP… Cat’s own numbers show this is at a 48% load ( 336 divided by 700)—You are at 60% load per you post…. There is a reason Cat goes the extra mile to publish this data. Not sure why CAT techs don’t follow it—I will also guess that your boat operates heavier now than it was on “sea trial” day where you did not even make the minimum rated RPM—IMO, You should have been 100 over that 2300…. 

 

Look at the attached snippet from page 2 in the CATERPILLAR MARINE ENGINE APPLICATION GUIDE . This is very clear as to what they want.  Am I nit picking? It would be one thing if the 3196 & C12’s had a stellar 20-30 year track record, but we both know they are far from that.

 

My thoughts? Prop down at least 2+” of pitch so you meet the RPM guidelines per the application guide and your cruise rpm load is at or below what the “prop demand” line says in this spec sheet for you engine.. If your boat needs to load at 19-20 GPH to get your speed, then you need to prop down to make that power at about 2000 RPM and free up the engine.. More RPM means you are pumping more OIL, more Coolant & More air but making the same power—Way better for the engine  

 

Also, does your vessel operation even meet the “E” rating guidelines?

[Rich Wood]

Straight forward

I think at both our ages we don’t give a hoot about getting our feelings hurt. You can’t change now,mgive it to me straight please. But also, your thought on the current/future state of the engine based on the oil. Thanks

[Tony Athens]

How honest do you want me to be based on what you just posted…………..It’s obviouss both CAT and you do not understand proper engine loading and application per CATS own published data..Don’t feel bad, the typical  Cummins factory tech that comes out to “certify” an insall for warranty  has no clue either..   Tony

[Rich Wood]

Answers

I bought the boat 6 yrs ago with 2001 3196, 1200 hours, had proper aftercooler etc. Boat ran good, 60% load most of time. Can’t remember exactly the issue which led me to get cat look at it, but oil “exploded” out of dipstick oil tube, all over bilge. They said they would have to rip it apart just to see what caused it and IF it could be fixed. Potential cost just to look $7-$10k. I knew 3196 were iffy at best (that was reflected in price I paid for the boat), didn’t want to waste $10k, then have to buy new engine. Decided to just repower instead of waiting to see how long 3196 lasted. Looked at new Scania, Volvo, needed a lower profile(40”), but went with c12 re-man as it was less expensive and installation costs cheaper (c12 and 3196 basically same footprint)

My c12 acert is 710hp at 2300 rpm. There was a basic c12 450-500hp, c12 acert, and c12.9, 800+rpm.

2001 38ft Wesmac downeast with bridge, 12’8” beam, 19,000 lbs basic

Loaded correct, 5 blade nibral, had to tweak blade, less pitch, warranty approved at 2293 rpm

Always cruise at around 58-60% load, 1800 rpm +/-, 17/18 knots, 18gph. Most I would cruise at 65% load, 19/20 knots, but gph starts to go to 22 easy. WOT 2293 rpm, 26/27 knots

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Athens]

What exactly took out the 3196 at just 3000 hours?  Yes, I know it had a very “colorful history” especiall with the aftercooler..    Your C 12?  What rating does is have? There are quite a few.   Size & type of vessel?    Are you propped to reach full RPM when all loaded up doing waht you do?    Exactly what type of vessel?   What RPM do you “cruise at” what traveling longsr distances / when yoi go to work..    What is the GPH / RPM when traveling at you cruise speed?        

[Rich Wood]

Engine pedigree

The previous engine was a cat 3196, 3000 hours.  I traded that in for a $10,000 credit toward the engine I now have, a “new” Cat c-12 acert, re-manufactured. Cat builds up a new engine utilizing all excess “to oem specification” parts they have or re-manufactured parts to “oem specifications” and sells at a discount to a totally brand new engine. Interesting that just in the last year or so Cat stopped selling new c12 acert, and c12.9 engines, don’t know why. Engine after the previous engine credit was $45k. Warranty is one year, as I am commercial, same as a new engine warranty.  The engine was installed in winter of 2021, splashed and warranty started in June, 2021. My main question is, for an engine with only 800 hours, religious oil/filter changes, and I get this oil sample, should I fear for the worst? 

[Tony Athens]

I am Curious—————What is the vintage of the engine?

Was this a new “left over” from the past engine?

 

 

[Rich Wood]

Thanks

Interesting, your first sample was high in iron, probably break-in stuff, then lower. Other two nothing. I am pushing for replacement, but that’s a hope and a dream but you never know.

[bluebyu]

Happy Holidays!!

I would push for a new engine.  Too many issues.

My sample results are attached.  First result listed is new oil.

Hope this helps

 

[Author]

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