Cummins 480 CE 6CTA. White smoke and knocking

[JJM]

Hey guys need some input. Think I have an idea what’s up but would like to bounce it off Tony and the other guys. So today driving home cruising one motor starts stumbling a bit , I start backing down to check what’s up and it stumbled right Down and shut off before I was able to. I changed Racor filter and re primed and after a lot of repriming finally got it to re fire. Motor now runs but has a top end knock and is pushing white smoke.I’m leaking towards the idea it is a stuck injector. But not 100%. Is surely hope it’s not the motor . Stuck going back on one motor

Topic

[JJM]

chuck young wrote:

This was done in the water. Did a robust seatrial when complete. Just put the boat to bed on the hard for the winter knowing she’s ready to cruise in the spring right after splash.

I doubt Cummins would participate at this late date Especially with those of us who changed out the heads proactively. We need a good Philladelphia lawyer to take on a class action law suit. A few posts on the net spoke of doing that but Ive seen nothing solid. Too many of these failures out there.

Awesome . Glad to hear you are up and running again. I cant wait to be in the same shoes but will be a while…. Talked with Dan. Sounds well put together. You got yourself a great mechanic. Keep us updated if you hear anything else on this .

[chuck young]

This was done in the water. Did a robust seatrial when complete. Just put the boat to bed on the hard for the winter knowing she’s ready to cruise in the spring right after splash.
I doubt Cummins would participate at this late date Especially with those of us who changed out the heads proactively. We need a good Philladelphia lawyer to take on a class action law suit. A few posts on the net spoke of doing that but Ive seen nothing solid. Too many of these failures out there.

[Tony Athens]

This is just an IMO………………..

Yes, use a good independent mechanic to do the all the labor end on the project.

But personally I’d buy new/exchange Genuine Complete heads from Cummins–Now you have a real guarantee that your head is right–No inspection needed and all will be new and built to their highest /latest standards.

Curious–How does one inspect a valve seat as to whether the next time you come off plane fast the the seat cools before the head around it cools, and it then drops?

I suspect Cummins has changed this spec as to how the seats are installed in the marine heads for this motor to help this operating condition that occurs in marine use.

Tony

2 users thanked author for this post.

JJM, Bill Stenger

[Paul Gois]

CE 480

My work is being done on the dry. I will be sending my head out to have it inspected once we remove it. Either way I cannot put it back in good faith as it’s twin has already failed.

Very curious as to what the condition will be and what Cummins will do about this failure. I have sent an
email starting a case but they told me to go see my local dealer! I guess getting more parties involved will
be next… these cases are popping up everywhere…

Not happy with Cummins so I have hired a professional to do some of this “leg” work for me. He seems to think they will soon pay attention or get a lot of unwanted publicity. These days companies care more about
what is being posted online than taking care of the problems first! It would be much easier to ship out another
head but I guess the liability is too big? This will be interesting, because I love these types of challenges and
so does my very experienced friend…

[JJM]

was this done in the water or out of the water?

[chuck young]

Hard to say how many hours for the heads because the sea water system was completely serviced, all new hoses and clamps, injectors sent out for service, new belts, blast and paint coolers and exchangers following servicing. A guess would be 40 hours total for the heads including removal, procurement, painting prior to installation. One guy did most of the work. He had a helper moving the old and new heads. I helped with some mule work offloading parts he removed to keep an open work area. Most new parts were through the mechanic except for impellers and belts already on hand. Im expecting good photos of the old heads. Will post when I get them.

[JJM]

Nice work. Very Interested to see the underside of the old heads. How many hours would you say it took per motor? 1 guy or 2? Thanks for the photos and details.

Did you supply the parts or was it all supplied by the mechanic?

[chuck young]

The heads looked ok but seats were not yet carefully examined. Heads are in my mechanics shop and he will examine closer. Will report. The invoice has other items included and some barter so Id rather not send it. The work was done by a local marine diesel mechanic, DC Diesel & Marine Services ([email protected]). Very pleased with his work. The job was done without removing the floor. Not easy with that tiny hatch opening but not terrible. He protected the entire floor area with plastic and absorbant mat.
Some photos of the project below:

1 user thanked author for this post.

JJM

[JJM]

chuck young wrote:

Just completed a proactive change out of heads on my 2005 Searay MY. I had previously posted my concerns on another thread months ago. The 480 CEs only had about 350 hours and ran like a champ. I bought this boat last spring knowing the potential issue thanks to Tony and crew. So my offer on the boat included a price that reflected a change out. The boat was only slightly overpropped so I had an inch of pitch reduced which put me a little under the 450 curve loaded. This project was about $15K. Limited access and confined workspace made this more expensive. Plus I live in expensive NJ. We did a complete raw water side service while we were at it. My advise to anyone out there with these engines is to take Tony’s advice as I did and change out the heads proactively. Next season I wont have the dropped valve issue on my mind every time start her up. Shame on Cummins for not making this a recall.

Tony and crew, thank you for this forum and good advice.

Chuck did you examine the valve seats and see if any had signs of cracking? Could you share the invoice with us? Who did it? Where the heads removed in the engine room or did they pull the floor panels up?

[chuck young]

Dave
Nothing unusual noted.

[Dave Carlson]

This summer I was on the path to do the same thing on a 05 Searay Sedan Bridge and would like to know if you found any indication of problems on your old heads.

Thanks
Dave

[chuck young]

Just completed a proactive change out of heads on my 2005 Searay MY. I had previously posted my concerns on another thread months ago. The 480 CEs only had about 350 hours and ran like a champ. I bought this boat last spring knowing the potential issue thanks to Tony and crew. So my offer on the boat included a price that reflected a change out. The boat was only slightly overpropped so I had an inch of pitch reduced which put me a little under the 450 curve loaded. This project was about $15K. Limited access and confined workspace made this more expensive. Plus I live in expensive NJ. We did a complete raw water side service while we were at it. My advise to anyone out there with these engines is to take Tony’s advice as I did and change out the heads proactively. Next season I wont have the dropped valve issue on my mind every time start her up. Shame on Cummins for not making this a recall.
Tony and crew, thank you for this forum and good advice.

[Paul Gois]

Cummins ce 480 major failure

Hello
I am a new victim to the dropped valve problems these engines are so well known for. I have been
reading everything I can find on this problem and a big TY to Tony and the full SB team. I had the problem
back in Sept but due to a wedding and a rather difficult time finding an independent guy to do the job, it’s finally been opened up and verified. The head is toast and we are doing all six new pistons. Turbo was
destroyed as well. The only good thing is that there was enough room to do all of this in the boat without
moving the block… very lucky and a very good mechanic that wasn’t afraid of doing the rebuild. (others wanted to swap out with a rebuilt, but the cost just to get that engine out and replaced was about 10k!!)
not including the long block! Engines only have about 730 hrs on them but the discoloration is there
so I now know what that means… Ironically, I did have some gph #s from last year (not the full graph)
and at

1870 rpm I was at 9.2 gph per side
2160 13.5
2200 15.5 !!! (these just happen to be the #’s we recorded last year)

Why would there be such a huge difference in gph from 2160 to 2200? Either way I see the props need to be adjusted some… after the rebuild I will do a complete set of #’s. 2 years ago when I purchased the boat and
cummins came out for a full engine survey, (approx 620hrs). Should they have told me about the impending failure as I spent almost 3k on that survey!!!

I sent Cummins care an email and hope they will help out with some of this… they seem to be a great company. Can anyone share their experience with Cummins care and what I should expect from them…
I am really concerned about the port engine obviously and don’t want to wait for another major failure.
Ty all
Paul

[Tony Athens]

All you have is the info on public forums… I’d suggest you read, read and read some more and put 2+ 2 together..Then couple that with my politics on propping these engines that has in the public forum for well over 10 years. You, as a owner also have responsibilities too.

IMO there are two common denominators–—————

1——SEARAY delivered their boats when new OVER-PROPPED from DAY ONE & did not do their due diligence during the commissioning process explaining to new owners and proper engine loading over the fist year or or two of ownership.. .. In the 50 + Searay owners I have worked with over the past 10-15 years, 100% of them were grossly over-propped per Cummins prop curves and printed recommendations. And as the years go by, I see it even more……………………Tell me this–What was your fuel burn in GPH 2000, 2100, and 2200 RPM –I’d guess this is what you cruise at ?

2—–Cummins did not do a good job working with Searay as to the same thing–engine loading after the sale as the boat gets heavier over the first year of ownership, or beyond.. I would guess the the head used on the 480CE were the same as used on the 450 Diamonds in those years, and did not/do not show issues on the 450’s.. Maybe the extra power and the typical overload we continually see on these boats are just over their limit..

Tony

[JJM]

Tony do you have any documentation you can send me that is official from Cummins or other that documents the issue and the fact that its a known problem that would stand up to scrutiny?

[Tony Athens]

Do not start that engine anymore…..

Join the club of many–Your 480CE DROPPED valve seat..

Plenty about this on my web site and even current posts on this forum..

Tony

[JJM]

Update.

Found something interesting while cleaning up stuff a few days ago and winterizing the boat. I found some debris in my port strainer. Some paper pieces and plastic pieces . Not a ton but enough to be of a concern somewhat…. Originally when the motor stumbled and died I had felt/heard a bump/small bang right before the motor stumbled and died. Wasn’t sure what it was but never payed any attention to that fact at the time because seemed irrevelant. Thought maybe it was engine . But now thinking back and on the way home had a vibration around 1000-1200 on the star board motor that happened after this which is now I am thinking I probably hit something and maybe piece got stuck on intake and caused motor to over heat..?? Temperature didn’t sky rocket on gauge but I did see a engine temp alarm right before I shut it down . Not sure but things starting to add up now that my head is more straight! Time will tell. Still determining cause of failure. Anyways…..

Pulled injector off bad valve tuesday. Injector tip is crushed and a small piece 1/8 inch or less missing. Stuck scope in cylinder and piston is intact and moving up and down normally. There appears to be something on top of the piston either water or metal. Looks shiny like water. Next step to pull heads but at least piston is operating up and down normally and didn’t see any huge holes in it anywhere. More to tell soon.

[Tony Athens]

Keep us in the loop as you move fwd………………

#3–You’d be way better of with a liner issue than the head lifting ( which I really do not see happening) –That would also mean you most likely did a connecting rod in..

Once “we see” the damage, then a better assessment can me made..

Exhaust manifold– Needs to washed out multiple times with a hose, rolled around and tapped with a hammer and then more washing..Lots of little pieces go in in there…

Good chance “pieces” went thru the turbo too– Need a really good inspection on the exhaust side.

Tony

1 user thanked author for this post.

JJM

[JJM]

Thank you for your reply Tony.

1) Yes there is about 12 inches from valve cover to the top of the engine room. Only factor is I see it weighs 174 lbs. But yes there is room.

2) ok noted.

3)Yes drained it out right away. Flushed 3 gallons of fresh oil through the top down and drained and then filled with proper amount of oil. The first quart or 2 was thin then the remaining oil was a bit creamy but still thick and black. I had the oil tested. It has glycol so it came from somewhere. I imagine cylinder head lifted or hopefully not a hole in the liner……..?

4) I can be dropped but not removed. My gut is the motor would have to be lifted up a bit off the mounts to get it completely off.

Taking the engine out of the boat completely would be quite a ordeal. I am hopeful worst case it can be hoisted up and worked on in the cabin of the boat and then lowered back down. That would require ripping out the carpet and cutting the panels but not end of the world and much better then removing from boat.

Ok on Cummins Care

I would agree. I am very capable but its also my first time working on this specific motor for this job. So I already called 2 local Marine Diesel shops to come out and take a look and give me quotes.

I agree 100% and already am planning on proactively replacing the head on the other motor even though nothing is wrong. What really blows my mind is there serial numbers of the heads are several generations above the the first upgraded one from Cummins. So I should not have been having this issue.

Thanks for the pricing. Helps a lot. Anyone you can recommend in Ct for this work?

[Tony Athens]

I must say you do like to make things complicated……….But you are past that now, so let’s limit any more contingency damage as you try and recover from this mess..

Just answer my questions.

1) Can the head be pulled with the engine sitting on it’s mounts? If so drain all the coolant and get the head off the engine–Protect all as needed and do not mix up any of the top-end parts

2) Once off, spray all with WD-40 or something a tad heavier in viscosity. You can use a spray bottle mixed with engine oil or ATF and 25% #2 if you like. You can now bar the engine over to inspect all the cylinder surfaces , find / remove little “pieces of junk”, Because you ran the engine some more after the initial valve/seat drop, you could easily have damaged other cylinders as things TRAVEL from one cylinder to another thru the exhaust manifold–Sound crazy, but it happens, more often than not.. BTW, that’s why Cummins always replaces the exhaust manifold after a valve drop. ( factory protocol). Not mine.

3) Have you drained all oil out of the crank case? Was it oil, or creamy oil, or , ???

4) Can the oil pan be removed with the engine on it mounts? If not, could the engine be lifted in place to gain access to do that?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If it looks like the repair will be have to be done in the shop, start figuring out what it’s going to take to get the engine out.. Your other engine needs “proactively” have the head replaced with new one. Don’t screw around if you want to get past this.

As to all the politics with Cummins, I’d start with “Cummins Care”.. Get a case number and forward it to me so I can follow it.. I’d suggest that “sugar” goes way father than any alternative… ……………….Have the engine history and all details laid out in front of you before you call..

And last, you would not be the 1st guy ( most do) that needs to bring in a very good mechanic to help you do this. I prefer independent guy with a good reputation.

Parts cost, Genuine only:

New head and gasket—-$3000-ish
Cylinder kit–Piston, rings, sleeve, pin, rod bearing, misc– $600 per hole
Misc parts– allot $500
Disposables–Allot $500 ( oil, coolant and “throw always”)

Labor————————it all comes down to engine access and the people you hire– $3000-$20000 ????????????????

Tony

[Author]

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