R/w pump location move?

[Mark Tripi]

Good day fellow diesel owners. My boat (1999 Pursuit 3000 Express) is powered by twin Cummins 4 BTA-250 engines with Sherwood r/w pumps. As you know these pumps have a bad reputation. getting to them in the boat is next to impossible if you are not 90 lbs and very short. Next spring my wife and I are going to do some longer distance cruising and I want to make the boat as reliable and easier to maintain as possible. Toward that end the engines are now out of the boat, heads are off and everything is getting checked. At the very least I will move the mount out to make removing the pump easier.
I had been looking online and noticed jeep owners putting 4Bs in their jeeps. I looked at some of the web pages and they show companies that make billet gear housing covers wit accessory drives on them to spin pumps (power steering, vacuum) and wondered if it would be possible to mount a good r/w pump on the front of the engine using the billet cover with a correct mount location? If located correctly, would the gears still match up? If this is doable, it would make getting at the pumps so much better plus allowing the use of a better pump. Any thoughts?

Topic

[Mark Tripi]

Thanks. There is an older gentleman at the marina with 4BTAs in his boat that replaced his after coolers with the Bowman units and he has a problem with the air hoses popping off. He does not believe what we have told him, you can’t mount them to the stringers!

[Tony Athens]

GOOD!

[Mark Tripi]

Mounted to the engine!

[Tony Athens]

Looks like a really nice job, but I do have one question.. Is pump mounted to the engine so it “moves” with the engine ? Or, is it mounted to a stringer?

Tony

[Mark Tripi]

update

I am just about finished moving the r/w pump, and the after cooler also. I did a lot of measuring and drawing to make sure it would fit on the engine and in the boat. As it is I will have about 5 inches in front of the new pumps. The pumps are now mounted forward of the engines and driven by a belt. Both are located on the inboard side of the engine. Took some time to get the crankshaft adapter turned down from a Cummins piece. The brackets are made of 304 SS, and I had slots cut in them for adjustment. The fittings are coming tomorrow and I can install Thursday.

[Mark Tripi]

I am close to solving this. But I need a crankshaft mounted pulley for an “A” v belt, 7-8 inch diameter that is 3-4 inches off the face of the balancer. I can mount a Jabsco facing backward and run it with a pulley. Any ideas on that?

[Dan]

Door info via PM

[Mark Tripi]

Good and bad

Hey Dan, just got news today my after coolers failed a pressure test, so I have that to deal with also. At least I got them before the engine sucked sea water. I am looking at all options for that. The pump can be done either way. I have been talking with a large diesel outfit and will have quotes for any way I want to go, driven from the front of the crankshaft or installing a billet front cover and mounting the pump exactly opposite the existing location. That may be more expensive at first glance, but the other way creates an avalanche of other things that have to be moved. I may go billet.
I would love to see the drawings you have of the mods you made.

[Dan]

Mark Tripi wrote:

Geez we have done so many things exactly the same.

The desighn and layout of the boat wasted a lot of space as we both know, if you haven’t already changed it the thru hull fitting that drains the anchor locker was just a cheap push in fitting, it is open on the inside and essentially drained water straight into the hull (destroying the core like your deck)- a proper thru hull fixes that.

There is a ton of storage space above the water tank and waste water tank that isn’t accessible without the access doors I fitted (thats how the pic was taken of the top of the HWS) They also allow access to get in and work on other areas, you may want to consider getting some installed while the motors are out, I have the drawings for them if you want them.

Will be watching how the pump relocation works out, as your motors are out – let me know if you need any more measurments.

[Mark Tripi]

Thanks Tony, glad you stopped in. I am interested in what you think about moving the pump and being able to use a different pump, like the SMX1730. Not sure if that has 1.5″ ports on it but I would sure like a good pump. Since the engines are out now is the time to do it, or else be stick with those sherwoods in a horrible spot. Do you have a pump suggestion? Location preference as far as crank driven or mounted on a billet gear housing cover in front using the same gear drive?

[Mark Tripi]

Geez we have done so many things exactly the same. On the Racors I use my oil changer to suck them dry. I also moved wires etc, even removed the 3rd battery and use the port as the house also. Took off the factory e/r seal and put a seal on the hatch itself.
As for moving the pump, I think it will be cheaper to put it on the crank. Either way, no longer stuck with the G1503. Not sure which way would be easier to get to. On the crank or on the front using the gear housing.
Elbows rebuilt and ceramic coated. I just had the foredeck recored, it was mush up there.

[Tony Athens]

Pump Speed

Just an FYI.. The gear driven pumps on all of the mid-range Cummins Marine engines turn at 1:1 or a just tad faster than 1:1..

Tony

[Dan]

Re reading your post the pump would be driven off the crankshaft – ie a 1 to 1 ratio? I’m thinking it may turn to fast.

Better check on that before you get in to deep

[Dan]

It will be interesting to see where all that lands,I’m unsure if the orientation of the pump if mounted on the front of the engine will be ok,I maybe wrong but it possibly will be turning in the opposite direction it was designed for, and how the hoses will end up running to the pump and back to the aftercooleror or fuel coolers if you have them.

And the gears that turn the pump cut in the current orientation?

My fuel filters are mounted on the forward bulkhead that Im assuming your planning on doing and they are a pain in the arse,you cant mount them too high because you cant get the lids off or the filter out if using the racor 900’s, so you have to get them down low, to drain them or clean out the bottom bowls you have to remove them, and to remove them you need to be a contortionist….

If it where mine I would move the air con pump to the starboard side, there is room for it in front of the freshwater tank and it will still be 2 -3 inches below the waterline and then mount your fuel filters where my AC pump and oil changer are in the picture attached.

Might be a good idea to change the filter setup to dual screw ons if your using racors….

Thinking about it after typing all that you wont have room for the filters on the forward bulkhead in front of the engines if you get the RWP’s mounted on the front of the motors,there just isn’t the room,you may have to shift the AC pump and mount them where my oil changer is…

If you want to create some room down there while you have the engines out move all the cabling and gear/throttle controls inside the the main stringers, you can see that in the pic attached it really opens up that area between the motors.

Hope this helps

[Mark Tripi]

Hey Dan, I wanted to tell you I have had the belt guards off from year one when I got the boat in 2003. I also bought the remote oil filter kit for the stbd engine, that oil filter location also sucked. My forearm hardly fit between the deck and the engine and water tank. I found a company that makes the billet covers and they will modify it for a r/w pump. As we sent e-mails back and forth I asked about a crank shaft driven set-up. He said they do it all the time so I may go that way. Just have to move the Racors for some room in front. If I can get a SMX 1730 and run it off the front I believe problems solved. Not only the location but the crappy pump too! I just have to see if that pump can have 1.5″ hose ports. Get a blank to cover the original pump location and away we go.
If not I will move the water heater after making room and learn to live with it I guess.
While I am at it I am moving the port fuel filter inboard.

[Dan]

Mark Tripi wrote:

How did your hull turn out when you sealed up the holes from thru hulls?

I didn’t -I ran out of time when last I had the boat out of the water near four years ago,I fitted new stainless thru hulls and caped them off.I’m hauling it this month and will finish that job – the thru hulls are below the bottom paint line so cosmetically there will be nothing to see and its not a difficult job.

I measured the distance between the HWS outer edge and the bulkhead today and it is 11.5 inches, so assuming they are the same you should pick up at least 7 or 8 inches of room to be able change the impeller or remove the RWP in the field.

You will definatly have to get rid of the thru hulls and get creative with some hoses but it all very doable.

[Mark Tripi]

Those are great ideas Dan, thanks. I will get on those next week.
Yes 600hours. I have compression tests I did from 10 years ago and there is a decent drop across the board. But even 10 years ago they were fairly uneven, and I believe there were issues with the heads from the factory.

How did your hull turn out when you sealed up the holes from thru hulls?

[Dan]

Mark,
If you remove the thru hulls for the sinks and shower (there is two, and they are below the waterline..) You will be able to slide the hot water system forward against the bulkhead giving you about 12 inches of clearance around the RWP. Attached is a pic of the top of the HWS,(top corner of the HWS is highlighted) it will slide forward..

Attached is where I shifted the sink and shower sump box outlets,– into the air intake box that has its own drain. In that pic you can just see the top of the HW tank with the red pex hose attached, forward of that is the bulkhead with the green pex attached to it,that is where you should be able to push it forward and gain some room to get to the RWP.

I haven’t moved mine,Ive never had the engines out to get in there,I wish I had done it when I pulled half the boat apart when the RWP pump failed.

I have since removed the sump box for the sinks and plumbed them straight overboard thru one fitting using gravity.,and that cleared up the mess under the bathroom sink of hoses, wires and the sump box that rendered that cabinet useless for storage.

600 hours and all the exhaust valves are leaking?

Hope this helps

[Mark Tripi]

Re: moving the RWP

Thanks Dan, I am hoping to get some opinions on moving that pump to the front. Actually if it is possible I would go with an SMX pump. You must have the same boat. There were many cases of gas (Mercruiser) powered 30’s ingesting water back through the exhaust but I never heard of it happening to a Crusader or Cummins powered 30. Anyway, as an old Coastie Engineman I wanted to get the engines out and go over them. All engine mounts are shot and will be replaced. I want to look into IsoFlex mounts. All through hulls will be replaced with either Marelon or bronze. Water heater to be replaced. Mine looks like it went 10 rounds with Ali, it is all dented up from tools hitting it when removing the port RWP. That is one of my big pushes. Making it easier to get the pump off. At the very least I will make it better by either shimming the mount out (as per Tony’s Tips) shaving the mounting bracket, or a combo of both. Bilges get cleaned (although they are very clean except under the engines) and everything tidied up. I have had a bilge plug blocking off the forward bilge since I got the boat in 2003. Great minds think alike! Heads are getting a valve job, only 600 hours but almost all exhaust valves are leaking. Injection pumps are being sent out for calibration, and turbos are being checked and soot cleaned out. I hope it is all worth it, I like this boat and have done a lot to it.

[Dan]

Mark,
What led to the engines being removed? I ask because many of this model Pursuit suffered water ingestion thru the exhausts from poor factory design when produced and where recalled and engines where replaced, you may be spending money fixing the engines but not the problem.

It will be interesting to hear the responses about shifting the RWP, I hear where your at – changing the impeller on the port engine is 100% by feel, its virtually impossible to get your hands down there and requires a mix of cut down wrenches and other tools,I tried (unsuccessfully) to install SMX impellers in there.

When that pump failed I ended up removing the entire sanitary system (in pieces) ,the raw water intake, after-cooler and half the generator just to get the pump out.

While your engines are out there is a great opportunity to also replace the thru hull fittings that are otherwise inaccessible, you may want to consider changing the plumbing drainage setup for the live tank and upper deck drains, its woeful, messy -drains poorly and just a complete mess of PVC pipes that clutter up an already very tight engine room.

All that leads to two thru hull plastic fittings that are below the waterline and are directly attached (below the waterline) with house style PVC pipe that can not be accessed with the engines in the boat, many of these thruhulls have failed…also many where not sealed properly and where leaking water into the coored sides of the boat.

The sink and shower drains where also plastic thru hull fittings that where typically fitted below the waterline and can not be accused with the engines in the boat, now is the time to get to these, they are both actually completely unnecessary, dangerous and poorly thought out.

Some other things to consider

Removing the engine belt covers will give you a ton of extra room down there…

There is a drain/weep hole between the engine room and the cabin that allows dirty water up into the cabin area, the water can never be pumped out, it just goes back and forth when the boat is at rest or planning, I’m suggesting you glass up that hole while you can get to it and install a bilge pump in the cabin bilge, its safer and your cabin will smell much better for it…

You might want to have a close look at the hot water system while you have access to it, also get Tony’s thoughts on removing the fuel coolers, it makes access to those raw water pumps a whole lot easier.

[Author]

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