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  • #77096

    John Baker
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
    Engines: Cummins 330B X 2
    Location: Texas
    Country: Texas

    Howdy folks. I did not know what to call this topci so there it is. I am well aware of the exhaust issue. I am well aware of the tell tale signs of the exhaust issue. What I want to know is how do you correct an already leaking exhaust manifold??? And what are the costs and/or difficulty of the job.

    My ultimate problem is I am having a hard time finding a boat that does NOT have the problem. I really like the Sea Ray 480 Sedan Bridge…which in 2002-2004 were powered with QSM11s. But every boat we have looked at so far has had the symptoms of exhaust leaks.

    Again, I know how to PREVENT the issue based on Tony’s tips. I just need to know what needs to be done and what costs/effort is involved in fixing a boat that already has the issue if I decide to buy a boat that is already affected.

    PS… on the other hand…The earlier 480s have Cat 3196s that have issues of their own. I have been staying away from them…but wondering maybe they aren’t as bad as the QSM11….

Viewing 13 replies - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)
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  • #77393

    Larry Backman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Skipjack
    Engines: QSM 670
    Location: Cape Cod, MA
    Country: US

    Injector service as P/M

    I’m at 2000 hrs on the engine, I did valves at 1700 hrs. I have been noticing a 3-4% increase in fuel burn this year for no apparent reason. I also notice a faint raw diesel smell at idle. For better or worse my regimen includes a dozen nights a year with the engine at idle all night long.

    My mechanic and I agree it makes sense to service them proactively and have a look at how coked up they may or may not be.

    #77388

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Cummins dropped the $$ more than 50% about a year ago..

    Tony

    1 user thanked author for this post.
    #77386

    Philip
    Participant
    Vessel Name: 2007 35’ Cabo ‘FUGA’
    Engines: Cummins QSC8.3-540’s
    Location: Long Beach, CA

    Larry… out of curiosity why the injector service? What’s your filtration setup and service history?

    Those injectors, actually all injectors, should go 10-30,000 hours without touching them under one condition – good fuel filtration. I guess a injector here or there could go bad but filtration is relatively cheap. $500 an engine give you a killer SMX setup that is easy to service, has tons of capacity, and is way easier on the pocketbook than having the injectors removed and cleaned, not to mention no down time.

    Phil

    #77380

    Larry Backman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Skipjack
    Engines: QSM 670
    Location: Cape Cod, MA
    Country: US

    Holy Cannoli! That’s cheap!

    That cost is down to reasonable thank goodness.

    On the cost of a QSM, I’m finding that feeding it 3-5K per year in preventative maintenance, much of which is labor at 125/Hour helps to avoid that big bill.

    I’m doing my entire raw water system every 2 years, and cycling through the bolt on components rebuilds (water pump, starter, alternator, turbo) a few per year.

    Had some sticker shock the other day as I intend to have my injectors cleaned and serviced this winter , I was thinking of keeping a couple for spares until I found out Cummins wants 900$/injector!

    But all in all, once you understand how to run and maintain a QSM, it’s a damned good engine.

    #77379

    John Baker
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
    Engines: Cummins 330B X 2
    Location: Texas
    Country: Texas

    So 6 grand for both engines plus labor????….not bad!!!

    #77314

    Steve Lewis
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Just Us
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Marblehead, OH
    Country: USA

    Price reduction

    Larry et al…….

    When I was doing all of my calcs on parts and labor the manifold kit was about $3K. It seemed that all of the major parts were about $3K. Check this out!

    Cummins Marine QSM11 Exhaust Manifold Kit

    $1500 for the manifold kit. Nice! I can start to revise my estimates and assumptions.

    Steve

    #77298

    Larry Backman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Skipjack
    Engines: QSM 670
    Location: Cape Cod, MA
    Country: US

    Rough amount?

    What’s it down to Tony? As I recall it was roughly 8K for the manifold and gaskets and studs back when I did it in #012.

    #77265

    John Baker
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
    Engines: Cummins 330B X 2
    Location: Texas
    Country: Texas

    Thanks Tony!!! That gives me encouragement. Now I have to figure if the hassle of doing all of this pre-purchase or buy a boat with a negotiated priced that reflects the cost of the work that needs to be done.

    Thanks again!!
    John

    PS…I have looked at 5 Sea Ray 480DB and all of them(except one engine on one boat) had leaking manifolds. NOBODY in the pleasure boat realm has a clue this issue exists!!!

    #77244

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    John,

    About the only thing I could add to Steve’s postings is that the cost to do what needs to be done will be most affected by the cost of labor to do the work, and the competence of the people that doing it.. Many “Cummins” shops will just come in an bid the job at some crazy level, while a solid independent mechanic with experience would usually come is a 40-50% less.

    A totally hands-on owner could do all that would needs to be done for well under $10K per side other than the prop work.. I am also assuming the aftercoolers can be serviced and are not “throw-aways”.. All the other parts, if replaced, are cheap by comparison, including the manifolds and new mounting hardware… BTW, they have come down over 50% in the last 2 years as to cost..

    Tony

    #77193

    Steve Lewis
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Just Us
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Marblehead, OH
    Country: USA

    Try this one on for size

    QSM 11 Exhaust Problems and Engine Fire

    Higher Hour engines might be a blessing in disguise. You might find that some of the nasty items have already presented themselves and been addressed. I would ask tons of questions

    How many times have the exhaust manifolds been replaced?
    How many times have the aftercoolers been serviced per the sbmar protocol
    How many times have the heat exchangers been serviced?
    Have the water pumps been replaced?
    Exactly what service was done at the 1000 hour interval?
    Were the valves adjusted?
    Have the props been tuned to get the fuel burn down?

    Look closely at the turbo and aftercooler discoloration. I have a casual discoloration scale. Vanilla, Butterscotch and Chocolate pudding. Anything shy of the butterscotch is promising. Anything darker and you start asking a whole lot more questions……….

    Good Luck!

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #77191

    John Baker
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
    Engines: Cummins 330B X 2
    Location: Texas
    Country: Texas

    Steve,

    Very much appreciate your input. $25k per side?…yikes! I was thinking $10-15k maybe but that was an arbitrary ignorant guess. I am flying from Houston to your neck of the woods(Cinci, OH)today to look at a 480DB. Wish me luck. I do not have high hopes as the boat has 1500 hours on it. But the rest of the boat looks nice and if I can get it for the right price. Sadly most brokers and owners have no clue this problem exists.

    I have a question…since most of these operators are just cruising along in blissful ignorance, what would be the effect of just leaving the problem alone and letting them leak(other than the obvious soot mess and fumes in the engine space)???

    #77187

    Steve Lewis
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Just Us
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Marblehead, OH
    Country: USA

    Personal Perspective

    JB,

    I have been looking at similar size of boats as you and some of them are equipped with the QSM. After reading a ton and interacting with folks on the forum I have come to my own conclusion on a negotiation approach with a seller when the QSM’s are showing the tell tale signs….

    First my assumptions, then I will share my starting point. You might also reach out to Larry Backman on this forum as he has posted that he did extensive work on his QSM’s including manifold replacements. He might share his actual numbers.

    QSM11 635 Overhaul

    First step is have the props tuned to get the engines down into the correct fuel burn range. Maybe even buy a spare set with the new tuned pitch………

    Second(and ONLY after prop work) is to start working the systems
    Exhaust manifold replacement
    Turbo (rebuild or replacement)
    HX Clean and service
    AfterCooler Full Service as per sbmar protocol
    Water Pump assessment and remediation if necessary
    Exhaust configuration assessment and remediation if necessary

    After all of that I figure we are talking about $25K per side. This is a starting point and that number might be higher but it is based on some assumptions of labor cost and parts cost.

    I have noticed that the 52 Sedan Bridge has varying states abuse of these engines but I still look at it as bidding at least $50K lower than asking price if all else looks good. Maybe more if the boat needs some cleanup aside from the engines.

    Hopefully Tony and team will indicate if my number is reasonable or if I am out there smoking something good

    2 users thanked author for this post.
    #77180

    John Baker
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Floatsome & Jetsome
    Engines: Cummins 330B X 2
    Location: Texas
    Country: Texas

    Much appreciated guys. Come on Tony….Brad….you are going to subject me to the Cummins “tech” that you despise???

Viewing 13 replies - 1 through 13 (of 13 total)

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