• This topic has 18 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by Dan.
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  • #74688

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    Besides the port engine lagging behind, I am done with the past winters project. I had to install two new after coolers and plumb them, and I designed a new raw water system for the 4BTAs. You know what a pain the Sherwood pumps are so I installed two Jabsco pumps on a front mounted bracket driven by a cog belt. The pumps have to run underspend with a half cam to reduce the output close to the Sherwood pumps. They run at the correct temp with no problems. I also threw in a new set of valve covers just because.

    1 user thanked author for this post.
Viewing 18 replies - 1 through 18 (of 18 total)
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  • #96391

    Dan
    Participant
    Engines: Cummins
    Country: USA

    Install 2

    Updating with the second install, the Starboard pump now has some 25 hours of runtime, Port has 7, no issues so far.
    Both the original Sherwoods appear to be in great condition for the 1500 hours of runtime they have accumulated, freshwater flushing probably the helped… the intake hose pictured with the pump is 4 years old (normally in the environment my boat is moored in the they would be full of shells in a couple of years)

    #94097

    Dan
    Participant
    Engines: Cummins
    Country: USA

    new pump

    water pressure pics

    1.Engine with new pump running @750 RPM’S,the other engine not running
    2.Both engines @750 RPM’S Port engine original Sherwood,Starb engine new Jabsco
    3.Both engines @1800 RPM,S

    #94094

    Dan
    Participant
    Engines: Cummins
    Country: USA

    update

    Updating Marks thread
    A video of my Starboard install, I had to modify the bracket from Marks drawings as I have different engine mounts, space constraints and had to assemble it all with the engines in the boat.

    Without a head start on this project using Mark’s drawings, plans, idea’s, input and support I cant imagine the project all coming together as it did.

    Mark,all I can say is thank you,amazing engineering,creativity and research.

    I’m considering some additional gusseting and pinning the two arms,however the video shows the bracket solid and without flex,the engine was cold and running at 750 RPM’s.

    Video attachment didn’t work……link to YouTube vid

    #92457

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    1000 hours might take a few years! The average boater here in the north east puts on about 50 per year. But I’ll give it a shot.

    #92309

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Mark,

    When you get your 1st 1000 trouble free hours on the pump drive system you put together, then we’ll both know for sure……..HURRY!

    Tony

    #92253

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    Wow, I am blown away that you would say that Tony. Thank you very much. I can understand Dans thoughts concerning all this, and that is why I posted the numbers I had , for you to be able to give him your thoughts on using a half vs full cam. It would be easy enough to spin the half cam pump a bit more by getting a slightly smaller cog on the water pump.
    Thank you again, Mark

    #92067

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    Mark,

    This is how I look at what you did..

    In my book, you were on a close to a “Mission Impossible”, yet no matter how you look at it, you turned that into a “Mission Accomplished”…………………………….What you did on paper to figure it all out, proves you did your home work , but to me, what matters is what is happening in the field..

    Ya done better than good !

    #92019

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    Let me post the numbers I have for Tony to consider. Here in the Northeast the water temp may hit the low 70s. I would guess in the Gulf of Mexico it would be warmer. I wanted to get close to the Sherwood pump with some margin of safety. The Sherwood G1503 on the 4 BTA-250 puts out about 46 GPM @3000 RPM.
    Spinning the Jabsco 6400-1051 half thickness cam at just under 2300 at a 1-1.3 ratio (engine at 3000) gives about 54 GPM. The full cam comes in at over 72 GPM. I believe the half thick cam gives the benefit of longer life also. These numbers come from the flow charts for each of these pumps. When I started going this route I was worried about sending too much water through the system.

    #91940

    Dan
    Participant
    Engines: Cummins
    Country: USA

    Thanks Tony,
    I have another query, Mark did a ton of research to mimic the flow characteristics of the G1503 Sherwood throughout the RPM range of the 4BTA and the result using a half cam in the pump he chose combined with gear ratio’s resulted in virtually identical numbers,Mark and I have spoken on the subject and Ive asked others with different opinions given,do you see any advantage in using a full cam in the pump to up the flow it can provide.

    Whilst some say increasing the flow builds a bigger safety factor into the equation, others say it may

    Overpressure the cooling system
    Risk of water being forced back into the turbo (that would probably be dependent of exhaust design)
    It may result in colder running temp’s producing more wear/unburnt fuel/poor economy and smoke
    Increase back pressure

    My observations from owning the engines since new and now @1500 hours.

    My engines will not come up to temp without load (normal) but for me the only way to get to operating temp now is get the boat operating briefly on the “hump” after an idle period transiting the harbor and really load them up briefly …….or gradually increase RPM’s. Increasing RPM’S gradually still will not result in achieving the desired temps in a reasonable timeline, one could argue either way what is the better process – load them up briefly and get the temps fast or spin them up to achieve the temps, for me the first is the better and faster approach.

    I don’t start my engines until im ready to untie, I get the boat in gear and some load on the engines ASAP. I have 180 d thermostats, my impellers are @ 400 + hours and the G1503’s have never been rebuilt from new, (I did replace the seals in one pump @200 hours) the other has never been touched.I have pressure gauges on the pumps and I can clearly see that are operating now at about 70% compared to when they where new (Ive monitored this decline in pressure) The engine with the HWS hooked up to it takes longer that the other to come up to temp,I assume this is due to what essentially is a larger capacity cooling system on that motor.

    In winter the engine temps drop down very quickly when coming off cruising RPM’s yesterday my temps had dropped to 150d in the 10 minutes of idle time through the harbor (winter) In summer temps drop from 185d to180d in that period and will stay there regardless of how long at idle speed.

    Reading articles on the subject (and I may have misinterpreted this) apart from the woefully designed G1503 is the 4BTA marine cooling system as designed adequate,I realize the thermostats are ultimately governing the operating temps and everything is variable dependent on load and other scenarios.

    In your opinion should I go ahead and set this up with a higher RW flow capacity?

    Thanks

    #91788

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    B block –front block dimensions.. Yes, it is symmetrical, unlike the “C”.

    The number you want for reference is 6.91″

    #91781

    Dan
    Participant
    Engines: Cummins
    Country: USA

    I am planning on duplicating Mark’s sensational 4BTA raw water pump relocation,I may need to make some modification to his drawings as I want to mount both pumps’s outboard (his pumps are both located inboard) and may need to alter the drawings for fabrication.

    Can anyone tell me if the center of the crankshaft is center to the block (width) that is to say if you took a reasonably accurate measurement from the center of the crank to either engine mount face would they be similar? (see pic) it doesn’t look like it in the pic I attached but that may be due to the angle the pic was taken.

    I cant get an accurate measurement in the boat

    #74779

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    Ok Rob, then I will send pics to Tony.

    #74774

    Rob Schepis
    Forum Moderator
    Vessel Name: Tenacious
    Engines: 6BTA 5.9 330's - "Seaboard Style"
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Country: USA

    Thank you Tony. If I could send the pics in high res I would. I used the I phone, is there a setting on that?

    The camera on the iPhone always shoots at full res.

    #74756

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    BTW Tony, I will take notice of the in and out pipes on the Bowman. I did it the other day but did not pay attention.

    #74734

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    Thank you Tony. If I could send the pics in high res I would. I used the I phone, is there a setting on that?

    #74733

    Mark Tripi
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Keeper
    Engines: Cummins 4BTA
    Location: Long Island NY
    Country: USA

    Thank you Bill. Actually that is the Cummins belt since it can not be put on without taking off the pump! The cog belt is easy.

    #74724

    Bill Stenger
    Participant
    Engines: 250 Hp 6bt M1
    Country: United States

    This is beautiful work here! Nice job. Is that spare cog belts for the raw water pumps I see there? Smart thinking.

    #74705

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    4BTA 3.9 250's w/ Boat show quality mods

    Some very serious work here.. You obviously have the passion and the talent.. Now it’s time to put some time on them…………..Go Fishin’ and try and do 500 hours in the next year..You’ve earned that and more.

    Care to send me those pics in High Res? I’d like like to share them on our web site..The more the better.

    Curious–When you are running at cruise RPM in the 2400-2800 RPM range–Ever put your hand on the In & Out air pipes on the Bowman aftercoolers? Love to know the temps and the delta between them..

    Tony

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