New owner of a 38 Bertram Convertible with 6CTA 480ce's – immediate priorities?

[Nicholas]

Just closed on a B38 powered by 2002 6CTA’s with about 1500 hours. This is my first diesel boat so I’ve spent the last month or two pouring over this site and some others to get educated.

In 2016 the engines had heads rebuilt, turbos rebuilt, aftercoolers and heat exchangers serviced, and new injectors installed. One engine also had a piston, liner, rings, and bearings replaced and the other got a new belt tensioner and serpentine belt and had the exhaust pipe from the turbo to rubber boot rebuilt (not sure what happened there).

One engine blew a raw water hose during the sea trial, then in the second sea trial the other engine wouldn’t climb above 1900 RPM. However after the secondary fuel filters were changed the engines spun right up to just over 2600 and ran like a dream for several minutes with no issues.

My plan of attack is to change the motor and gear oil, change the zincs, racors, add a freshwater flush system, and replace any other hoses that look worn. Since the heat exchangers and coolers were done about 100 hours ago in 2016, i figured i could wait a year on doing those. I’m also going to go ahead and have about 100 RPM worth of pitch taken out of the prop. After all of the reading on this forum and others on the dangers of overloading these engines, and based on the fact that they seemed to have required a pretty major overhaul at 1400 hours, it seems to me like a prudent thing to do.

Is this logic reasonably sound? Anything else I should do right-away? Since he only did one of the belts should I go ahead and do the other? Thanks and I look forward to being a part of the community!

Topic

[Tony Athens]

Nicholas,

I looked over these pics as best I could.. I know you are really trying very hard to sort out where you need to go from here…

What you need to asking yourself is WHY all the extensive engine work at such low hours…….

Your current pics may reveal one thing I did not pickup up on before.. Your exhaust mixer, at least on the port engine, is very flat and does even come close to what Cummins requires as to a “down hill slope”.. Water getting back into the turbo?

All said and done, there is only one thing that would require this type of engine work to be done at such low hours–It’s installation related so things need to be changed or you will be doing that all again,,..

#1 would be engine loading and that is “PROPPING”..

Only way to accomplish this, is to be able to “SEE” your GPH at your happy vessel cruise speeds and RPM’s This has nothing to do with WOT..

#2– aftercoolers and proper inspection & servicing

#3–Let’s “see” inside both turbo exhaust outlets..

Tony

[Nicholas]

last couple of the stbd engine

[Nicholas]

…and here’s the starboard engine. sorry about the orientation of some of them.

and yes, that is a 2×4 holding up the saloon floor. Definitely need to address that…

[Nicholas]

here’s a couple more of the port engine, then the genset

[Nicholas]

Fresh Engine Photos – Thoughts

I got a chance to visit the boat this weekend and snap some photos of the engines. Here are images of the port engine, genset, and starboard engine. It was tough to get good pics of the exhaust because of the lack of clearance between the deck and engine. Basically the order of the pics is the port engine, then genset, then starboard engine. Looks like I’m going to have to break this up into a couple of posts….

[William Walter]

Screens

I’ve also looked into screen repair as I have the same issue.i worried about the same issues as Corey mentioned.when I spoke to the company that did the repair I mentioned the the backlight was out on one gauge at night and it was an extra 150 to repair that so I would Ck that before considering that repair.still living with my old gauges but wish I had new.wish they were cheaper then it would be an easy decision.as far as the engine work that was done at 1500 hours I think unfortunately it’s the norm on this engine if it’s over proped .both my engines were done at 500 hours by Cummings .new improved head cylinder on both engines.turbo.since my purchase I redid props and a bunch of other things to get boat aligned with sbrm recommendations.bill

[Nicholas]

I just heard from the electronics shop and they said they got the displays apart and they are too water damaged to make a repair cost effective. He said they could replace the screen but there was water intrusion and associated corrosion at the contacts for the buttons and in other areas in the display assembly and he just couldn’t guarantee that they would ever work properly. So….back to square 1.

Long term i’d like to probably get new displays but i’m wondering if there is any way to display the engine data on the garmin 7607 that’s already there, so at least i can get the data I need on fuel burn, etc to determine if I’m propped correctly.

There’s a company that makes a J1708 to NMEA 2000 adapter for about $250. They claim “A gateway for engines with a J1708 serial interface to a NMEA 2000 marine digital network. With it, you can see engine revolutions, temperature, working hours, fuel rate and other information on the screen of a chart plotter and other display devices on an NMEA 2000 network. The Gateway supports the two protocols that work over J1708: the standard J1587 used by many manufacturers and the proprietary Volvo Penta protocol used in engines with EDC I, for example KAD 44 and KAD 300. ”

I can’t find any instance of using one of these adapters in conjunction with a 480CE. Does the 480CE employ a standard J1587 protocol over the J1708 bus?

If so, I’m thinking I could install a NMEA 2000 starter kit, then connect the J1708 connectors from the old displays to my garmin via the NMEA 2000 network using this adapter and view the engine data on my garmin. Any reason why that wouldn’t work?

[Corey Schmidt]

Well let’s see how they turn out and go from there… thanks

[Nicholas]

I’ll let you know how it goes. I was hesitant to post the name of the company because i didn’t know how you guys felt about posting other companies’ info on your forum. However if you do a quick search there are a lot of postings on tht and similar sites talking about them, all seem to have had pretty positive experiences. I found them looking for someone to repair the auto pilot screen (robertson ap20), which seems to be a pretty common problem, but then I asked them about the cummins displays and they said they could do them.

I got the idea they were actually replacing the LCD panel but I’m not 100% sure on that part. It’s about $500 per screen, so not cheap.

[Corey Schmidt]

Let me know how that turns out… the issue with those particular displays is HEAT. They literally burn out from the center so I am curious of a few things:

1. Can they actually repair the burned out LCD panels?
2. If they can repair the burned out panels, how long will the new panels last with the HEAT issue?
3. Any idea as to the overall cost of the repair?

I have yet to find a company that can do it successfully so if they can, I’d like to know who they are if you don’t mind…

Thanks, Corey

[Nicholas]

Yup, those are the ones. There’s a company in pompano beach that can repair the displays. I’m not sure exactly what’s involved but my understanding is they replace the LCD screen itself, kind of like when you have a broken iphone or ipad screen (of which i’ve had many). I haven’t used them before but their reviews seem to be overwhelmingly positive. This is, of course, going off the assumption that the screens are all that’s wrong. If they open them up and, for example, there’s water intrusion/damage to the pc board, i’ll be in the market for new displays all together. I noticed you guys have a replacement option for sale – those would definitely be on my list. But assuming it’s as simple as replacing the LCD screen, that will be quite a bit cheaper.

[Corey Schmidt]

Digital Displays

When you say you’re getting the displays refurb’d, is someone repairing the displays or are you getting them replaced?

Do the digitals look like attached image?

[Nicholas]

Yeah I have mixed feelings at best about the engine survey. On one hand, the guy came up to Stuart on a Saturday a few days after Hurricane Irma hit FL when a lot of folks still didn’t have power, etc., in order to get my survey done on a day when I could fly down. So that was pretty cool of him. On the other hand, I paid $1400 for about 2 hours of survey time (plus an hour or so of travel either way and the time it took him to write up the report) and while i can’t fault him for the hose blowing and shortening the sea trial, it seems like it wouldn’t have been too much to ask for him to save the data that we did get during the trial run. He had nothing but good things to say about condition of the engines, and when I asked about the rebuild work that had to be done and whether it was indicative of a problem he said the engines are 15 years old and a significant overhaul would be expected right about then, regardless of the hours.

I asked him specifically to look at the exhaust because it appears to have been a gas to diesel conversion and I knew that was something that is commonly not done correctly. Unfortunately i hadn’t read tony’s “understanding diesel exhaust” article yet so I didn’t know what specific questions to ask. Both the engine surveyor and hull surveyor said it looked fine, albeit a bit “messy” where the exhaust exist the hull.

At any rate, I’m having the display screens refurb’d right now so I won’t be flying blind when I operate the boat. When I get down there in a month or so I’ll get some good, detailed pics of the engines, exhaust, etc., and get some data points to construct a fuel burn and engine load vs. RPM plot. Like I said earlier, I’m planning to have a little pitch taken out of the props right away, and then once I see that data I’ll know if I need to get more.

The PO only owned the boat for about 3 years, so I have no idea what was done to the engines before that, except that there’s evidence the ECM software was updated as there is a 1000 hour discrepancy between the hours read off the ECM and the hours on the analog gauges.

More to come when I can get down there in a month or so…very much appreciate all the tips and suggestions and general willingness to help me learn!

[Tony Athens]

Low Hour Rebuilds on 480CE's

Reading this tells me something that really needs to looked at so it does not happen again………………Exactly why did these engines need this type of work done to them at such low hours?…………. Not the servicing part, but the heads, turbos, injector and cylinder kit..

In 2016 the engines had heads rebuilt, turbos rebuilt, aftercoolers and heat exchangers serviced, and new injectors installed. One engine also had a piston, liner, rings, and bearings replaced and the other got a new belt tensioner and serpentine belt and had the exhaust pipe from the turbo to rubber boot rebuilt (not sure what happened there).

For this engine to need this type of work at 1500 hours really only means this: An installation and / or operational related issue, or a combo of both.

As to engine loading, it’s not the WOT load that matters on this engine, it’s the load at steady state cruising in the 1900-2300 RPM range that matters.. So without proper instrumentation, you are driving blind..You need to “SEE” that fuel burn in GPH per engine

So to me, your immediate priority is figuring out why this type of work was needed, address that and get you Digital panel up to speed..

IMO How to start moving forward– Get in the engine room with a decent digital panel and take good pictures from all around showing all.. A really good visual of the exhaust system is extra important.. Pics need to clear and in-focus.. You can post here, but sending them to me in high-res would be nice..

And last, your engines have been in your boat for 14+ years and everything that spins on the front of your engines and every piece of rubber hose on them are basically original.. Do you really want to wait and replace them as they each fail as it seems to have happened in the past?

Remember, this is your 1st Diesel and you came to the right place for help..

Tony

[William Walter]

Engine gauges

I have the same problem with screen burn also but have learned to live with it by putting gauge in quad setting which brings digital numbers more to the corners of screen.once in that setting you can adjust each corner of your display to your liking.

[Rob Schepis]

Wow, that was very lame for an engine surveyor to leave you with pretty much nothing as to real usable data, I hope you paid for what you got..

Your plan to remove some pitch now is a good one. All these engines we talk about on these forums cannot be “underpropped” (especially considering your comment about top end speed) so either you’ll end up where you want to be or that much closer to it. And yes, cruising that same speed at a slightly increased rpm is a good thing.

[Nicholas]

Unfortunately the screens on the displays are burned out so we couldn’t see fuel burn or engine load on the final run when we made 2600. During the original sea trial, where we maxed out at 2400 RPM and blew a hose, the engine surveyor had a laptop hooked up and noted the engines were around mid-80’s in terms of percent engine load at 2400 (think it was 87% but can’t remember for sure). Problem is he gave me the engine load and fuel burn data verbally right after we finished, and I didn’t write it down because i thought it’d be in the report. It wasn’t, and he didn’t save the data on his laptop, so I just have the rough verbal number he gave me at the time to go off, plus the final sea trial when the engines spun up to 2600 or maybe a hair over measured on the analog gauges, which I know isn’t terribly accurate.

So…I’ve got to get a bottom job done anyway and there’s a ding in one of the props i want to get taken care of anyway. I could wait until i get the displays fixed, get accurate readings to construct a load vs RPM curve, and adjust the props as needed next season. But that would mean another 100 hours or so running as-is. Or I can take a little pitch out of the props now, knowing worse case I end up slightly underpropped, which from everything I read sounds like doesn’t hurt anything but top end (which i don’t care about anyway) and if anything may help with efficiency at cruise (which i definitely care about).

Is this a flawed thought process?

[Rob Schepis]

What load was she seeing at 2,600 when settled in?
How about fuel burn at cruise, did you record/plot that?

[Nicholas]

yup, i’ve read both of those. the propping article i’ve read about 10 times. That’s why I’m going to have about 100 RPM worth of pitch taken out of the prop right away, even though it turned 2600 in the sea trial. Better safe than sorry.

[Rob Schepis]

480CE Propping

Another important read for 480CE owners

Propping the Cummins 6CTA 8.3 480CE vs. 430/450 Diamond Engine

1 user thanked author for this post.

Corey Schmidt

[Author]

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