C Series 6CTA – M3 Delco 28si alternator upgrade

[Paul Hampton]

Hi Guys

I have a 2000 model 6CTA M3, at the moment it has a Delco 22si alternator, J hinge, 12v, with sense wire. I think its 130amp or 145amp

I am looking at installing a 28si, preferably 180amp, 8600223, or 160amp 8600312, to give me more charge at idle.

I do a lot of drifting, engine idle or off and when wrecking idle & low rpm,s. on a night especially I have a a large load drawing from the plotters, radar, lights, heater etc.

I have 2 x FLA Trojan 6v, in series giving me 12v @ 415amp on the house batteries, 2 x Banner AGM for starting, hook up through blue seas isolating switches and a DVSR.

Has anyone upgraded to any of the models mentioned, have there been any problems, any detrimental effects on the serp belt/tensioner, etc. is it worth the cost ?

I think these are plug and play from what I can see.

Is it difficult to change the pulley from old alternator to new ? 

 

any advise is gratefully welcomed

Thanks in advance

Paul

 

 

Topic

[Gene Fuller]

Tony,

Thanks.

I have quite a bit of experience in marine electrical matters, and I am completely hands-on. I have “home run” voltage meters on all my battery banks. I have a good idea of where the power is used. I have a pretty good understanding of alternators, one-wire vs. three-wire, internal vs. external regulation, etc.

The issue I am addressing is the desire for charging the house bank when underway. We cruise a lot, with overnight anchoring and daily motoring. The electrical system includes a diode isolator which only provides about 13.2 or 13.3 volts to the house bank. This is not damaging, of course, but it also does not do much to restored the charge used at anchor. The current alternator is a Delco 19SI, and it appears to work reasonably well. Output is about 14.2 volts (externally sensed to start battery) and the output current is adequate when the batteries are low.

There are multiple options for accomplishing my goal, and I greatly prefer to keep everything automatic without manually operated switches for example.

I was really looking for an update and review of the Sterling Power Products approach and performance.

Rod,

Thanks for your offer. I do not need any photos or installation diagrams, as I noted above. I am really looking for a quick snapshot on whether the system worked out for you and whether you would change anything today if starting over.

Regards,
Gene

[Rodney Kirk-Burnnand]

Update

Hi Gene and Tony

Shortly after I wrote that in 2017 I took a bad fall on our boat, completely breaking my quadraceps tendon. By the time I had gotten over that I had forgotten that I had promised to put something together, photos and words, regarding the 28si 200Amp alternator and Alternator to Battery Charger AB12210 install. When we eventually got back to our boat we continued to love that installation. The 28Si alternator was cheap, I even carried a spare when we headed to the BVIs, much cheaper than a Balmar or similar. The install did exactly what it was supposed to do, the 28Si put out a lot of amps at idle (100A+) and a lot more at trawler speed (200A), the AB12210 made sure the 1500Ahr AGM battery bank was properly charged, and we could run our Pilothouse mounted Dometic Roof Air whilst cruising in hot weather. While running the roof air in hot weather the 28Si alternator would get hot enough that the AB12210 would cut back the 28Si’s output for a while, no problem. I have photos of the install which I could pass on if wanted.

Regards from Rod

[Tony Athens]

Gene,

No, we do have an good article on what you want to accomplish……………………….But I can surely help you in this endeavor as I have decades experience asking DC power to do what A/C power usually does….

It all comes down to the “watts” you need to do what you need to do while the main engine is running, and then what you are trying to do with the main engine off vs. for how long using what your battery banks can deliver ( battery bank capacity) …………………Their is one another ingredient in the equation–The very un-secret one–You need a realistic $$ budget to do it right. If you are totally hands-on, then that ingredient is much smaller.

When we’re done, I commission you to write the article!

[Gene Fuller]

I realize this is an old thread, but I am considering doing something similar to what Rodney Kirk-Burnnand did.

I have looked through the forum and Tony’s Tips, but I did not find the article hinted at above.

Did that article ever get written and posted somewhere?

[Rodney Kirk-Burnnand]

Thanks Tony

Hi Tony. I’ll put something together for you, photos and words, regarding the 28si 200Amp alternator and Alternator to Battery Charger AB12210 install. I’m sure you will agree it’s a truly pretty installation. I’ll email that to you direct, including the T Shirt info. (thanks for that), soonish. Thanks too for the ‘stall stumble’ compliments, however whilst it might have been me who ‘broke the story’ regarding the Cummins 480CE ‘hidden problem’ in fact it was some guy on the ‘other forum’ who finally convinced me that I was ‘on to something’ and convinced me to dig deeper, despite ongoing ‘knock backs’ by Cummins.

When I was burning up 22si alternators I spoke directly to Balmar Technical guys, they, to their credit, told me that they were not happy connecting one of their alternators directly to a huge house battery bank because they expected their alternator would burn up. What I began to understand was that many of these ‘hot rodded’ alternators are basically ‘old’ alternators modified to provide external regulation. So basically they use an old technology alternator, a technology that cannot handle real heat. I am sure I am right in saying that Delco Remy have not built a single 22si alternator for many many years. One can still buy what appears to be a ‘new’ 22si but what one is getting is an old well refurbished unit (there are millions out there) or a knock off.

One thing I did not mention in my previous post was that I regularly see a genuine 200 amps being produced by my 28si alternator (I have a shunt there) even at only 1,200 engine rpm. I have a Dometic DuraSea Rooftop A/C fitted through a Bomar hatch in the roof of our boat’s pilothouse. That allows me to run A/C in the pilothouse whilst cruising, without running the generator to fire up the three ‘wet’ A/C unit’s. That roof A/C draws a lot of alternator power, no problem for the 28si, in fact I understand that was the aim when the 28si was designed, to be able to run a 120V roof air in the hot engine space of a school bus that spent a lot of time with it’s engine idling. Note also, I can run that roof A/C when our boat is ‘on the hard’, something I cannot do with my ‘wet’ A/Cs.  With a Dometic ‘Smart Start’ the roof A/C will easily start and run off my Xantrex SW3012 Inverter/Charger. My wife loves the roof air.

Rod

[Tony Athens]

480CE with real "Hands On" experience

Rod,  Welcome to our Cummins Community Forums….I was hoping you’d chime is  and share some of  the  vast experience you have gained over the years dealing with not only the Cummins product,  but “boat things” in general.. In this case,  the newer designs of “off the shelf”  proven  Delco alternators ( kinda an “American” staple.. I want to remind you that YOU and your  passion for what you do told me years back about the latest “stall stumble” issues with the 480CE.. Obviously this took more time than I had to dig deep into the Cummins System that they do not share easily unless you push hard and pry deep..,,   Anyway, thanks for sharing this experience with using a Delco 28SI 200 AMP unit,  If you want, put some pics together of your install as I’d like to make your experience into an article format  so more can learn that you DO NOT have to go to some “crazy priced”  Balmar  “hot rodded” alternator to get real HD alternator  performance…Anymore you van ad “verbage wise” is more than appreciated……Delco products are all you need if you want superior long term performance.. BTW, what size shirt do you wear? Send me an address–your wardrobe is not  quite complete..   Tony              

[Rodney Kirk-Burnnand]

200A 28Si Experience

I have had good experience running a 200 amp 28Si alternator on my 480CE for many years. The original 22Si is old technology, when I upgraded our 12V house battery bank to 1500Ahrs, with six big Lifeline AGM batteries, and connected the original 22Si directly to that I started burning up alternators, twice before I got smarter. The 28Si is today’s technology, a reliable high output at low rpm, high temperature capable, relatively inexpensive, off the shelf alternator. I carry a new spare, just in case. I regularly see over 100 amp output at startup idle. Initially I had some issues with a slight belt squeal at startup when the battery bank voltage was low and the serpentine belt cold. Running a ‘better’ serpentine belt, a Gates K080575HD, and stepping up to high idle (700rpm) soon after cool startup seemed to fix that issue. One problem remained, the alternator’s relatively low maximum voltage output rather than a three step charge profile. I have installed a Sterling Power Alternator to Battery Charger AB12210 to fix that issue. I’m extremely happy with the outcome of that combination. I have an alternator that’s designed for high output high temperature applications, if it fails I can quickly install a relatively cheap off the shelf replacement (unlike a Balmar etc.). I have an adjustable three step regulator that if it fails the alternator still works as original, or the regulator can easily be bypassed. With a Sterling Power remote panel I can control the alternator, I can turn the regulator on/off at will, it has a startup delay. I can watch the alternator temperature, at 194F the regulator automatically turns off until the alternator cools, then it automatically restarts, or I can monitor that high temperature approaching and turn the regulator off myself. Now I can charge my big battery bank fully and very quickly.  I have fourteen AGM batteries on my trawler, four in 24V configuration for bow and stern thrusters, six for house, two for engine start, one for generator start, with switchable echo chargers all can be charged off my 28Si engine alternator charge system if I wish . Rod

[William Hitchcock]

Voltage

If you are idling all the time then the following does not apply, but if you shut down and heavily discharge then it does.

If you need to charge your wet cell batteries back up (say to 85-90%) after a substantial discharge then you need a charge voltage of 14.8 volts to accomplish it in a reasonable amount of time. As the voltage decreases it takes longer, at 13.2 v it may be 80 plus hours. Both times are with an adequate charger. wet cell deep cycle batteries can be charged at from 13-20% of their amp hour capacity or 52-80 amps for a 400 amp hour bank. The only way to get that voltage is with an external regulator meant for charging deep cycle batts. Externally regulating delco alternators is a pia. the new models have welded terminations and may not be possible. Leece neville (prestolite ) makes a 150 amp model that is easy , fits and is under $200.

These voltages can boil your starting bank if they do not have a high limit combiner.

[Tony Athens]

Another simple test is to measure battery terminal voltage when you are at low RPM and you have your DC loads on as you use them……..  Use 12.8 voltage as “break even” — If you you are less than that you are going backwards–If above,  you are going forward as to your batteries.. Personally,  I consider that measurement to be one of the most important tools you can have on your boat.

Tony

[Paul Hampton]

David,

i will do that when I get home. I have a clamp on ammeter here at work

———

Many thanks for the input and guidance fellas, I will follow this up with a wiring diagram and v&A readings.

Kindest Regards

Paul.

[David Marchand]

Paul:

Again, please measure the alternator’s output so we can see what is going on. With only 15-20 amps of DC load,  you do not need a bigger alternator. You might need an external regulator though.

So, beg, borrow or steal a clamp on DC ammeter. Load the DC system up normally and measure the current at the alternator’s terminals. Also measure the voltage at the alternator as well as at the batteries.

David

[Paul Hampton]

Thank again Tony.

any thoughts on whether I should upgrade or stay with what I have, given the house battery capacity.

regards

Paul

 

[Tony Athens]

Rob’s answer for the nut R&R is how we do it–An impact.. The problem is,  the factory assembles DRY and the pulley may or may  not come off the shaft without some serious coaching.. That’s why we use grease when assembling (the fan & thread too) .  We also DO NOT use a self-locking nut…… Tony

[Paul Hampton]

Rob,

thanks, I take it they are on a keyway.

David

thanks, yes the big mothers, just fitted them and yes the capacity is there, but I was looking at fast charge options at idle for if I need it. Electrics are spot on.

But since I spent a fair amount on hopefully good batteries, do I start looking deeper into battery management, leaving the batteries fully charged state and try to look at a maximum % of discharge, say 20-30% before topping them up to 100%. I not sure what consumption I have, 2xplotters, radar,5 kW heater, stereo, nav lights, deck lights, ais, saloon lights, etc, say 15-20 amp.

I have no electricity on my mooring and I am away 6 weeks at a time that’s another factor I am looking at, to try and ensure I can top them up at the dock.

But do i need to upgrade, maybe not, should I upgrade, maybe not, will I upgrade that comes down to expert opinions and advice.

thanks again

Paul

[Rob Schepis]

Alt Pulley Removal

Hold the pulley with a gloved hand and use a 1/2″ impact (pneumatic or electric).  Once the nut is off:  Shaft is straight, not tapered so no hammer needed..

[David Marchand]

Aha, you have the big L16 floor polisher batteries, not the more common golf cart ones.

With those batteries and the output curve that Tony posted for the 22si I can’t believe that you can’t drift all night at idle. I would suggest checking the amperage draw of your loads and the alternator output with a clamp on ammeter with the boat running exactly as you are set up at night with all lights, radar, etc on.

Do you have bright lights shining on the water when you fish? Switching to LEDs might make it work with no alternator change.

The difference between the 22si and 28si at 2,000 rpm is 80 amps vs 120 amps for the highest one. Can you really be using more than 80 amps all night? Wow, something doesn’t add up!!

David

 

 

 

[Paul Hampton]

Thanks again Tony,

Sorry I missed your earlier post, I understand your comment on getting a balance, I put the 200amp out of the equation because of your comments one time on BD. I don’t have diode isolators

The curves you posted which I looked at, do show a nice improvement on the 22si

I  focused on the 28si, 180amp, because of the BD comments, hoping that would not be detrimental on the belt load. Even if the 28si 180amp was suspect then I would drop down to the 160amp. That brings the 24si into the equation I suppose. I am liking the 28si 180amp tho……

I hope the nut on the pulley is too much problem to get off, do they install the nuts with Loctite thread lock or anything, I suspect not, but thought I would ask.

Thanks again

Paul

 

 

[Tony Athens]

The 22SI pulley  fits the 28SI– “Plug & Play”.. Use a light smear of grease on all during the assembly..

 

Tony

 

 

[Paul Hampton]

Hi guys,

thanks very much for your time and responses, it’s  much appreciated.

my batteries are Trojan L16H, 2x6v, 12v @ 435amp. This choice was based on UK availability, weight, size and capacity.

Rob,

Thanks, I didn’t look at the 24si 160amp, I was focused on the 28si 180 amp then as an option 28si 160amp if there were any problems with the 180amp giving grief on the belt, tensioner, belt squeal or something.

—————-

Tony

Thanks, i am overseas at work, so I will post a diagram to follow up on this.

i can’t remember exactly how I have it, I need to look at the sense wire and the idiot light I installed to give a definitive diagram.

—————–

David,

thanks, I have 435 amp and could well have the capacity with the current 22si but I am thinking the 28si would be better and while I’m in a position to splash the cash,….. would it? I’m not sure, keeping in mind the 2x agm starting batteries charge requirements, then switching to house battery charging via the dvsr.

On The starting side, she starts instantly, looking at the nasa monitor voltage drops to around 10-10.5 volts, if I recall.

I don’t and can’t go down the route of mods for a bigger alternator, l am looking for a plug and play type.

———————-

The engine idles at 650 rpm (photo tach), sweet as, I don’t know what the alternator rpm is, I intend to photo tach that when I get out of this hell hole, but I was comparing the outputs curves of the 22si v 28si at alternator rpm of 2000. those 2 curves compared at that rpm looks like a nice increase in amps in a shorter time and low engine rpm,s.

if I go down this upgrade route, do you guys have any tricks/tips on changing the pulley over, or is it straight forward.

thanks again,

Kindest Regards

Paul

 

[Tony Athens]

I’ve attached 3 power output graphs for your information.. Understand alternator SHAFT RPM versus engine rpm.. Assume your alternator runs at 2.7 x your engine RPM…………….You can see major improvements over a 22SI at low RPM’s with either the 24 or 28SI.. These are “off the shelf units”, easy to install,  and both have provisions for external sensing to minimize voltage drop.   But they do not like diode isolators should you like  those–

Also, understand that your serpentine belt has limits as to how much power it can transmit , especially at lower RPM, so that MUST be part of the equation as to HOW much you can expect to ask of it.. .. Experience has shown that a 200 AMP 28SI is at the upper limit of the “belt wrap” at lower RPM’s, especially when you first start up and the batteries have be drawn down the night before..  Ever heat a cat get caught in a fan belt?

In so many words, you need to strike a balance as to what you think you want vs. cost, ease in installation, your capabilities as to making the upgrade, and all the rest.

Tony

[Author]

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