Cummins Marine Diesel Repower Specialists Forums Cummins Marine Engines 2003 35 Carolina Classic with 480CE’s – Things to look for?

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  • #31437

    Allen Kandelman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Chum Guzzler
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Dana Point, CA
    Country: USA

    Hello All –

    I am new to this forum and asked Tony for his advice, and he told to me to come here. So… here is am.

    I’ve made an offer a very nice 2003 35 Carolina Classic on the East Coast with Cummins 480CE’s and your article(s) have made me, well, nervous. The engines have 1700’ish hours, and its sounds like the mechanic who has been maintaining the motors is very familiar with the “potential” valve issue. So, as “preventive maintenance”, the mechanic replaced the heads 100 or so hours ago. The owner replaced the turbo’s, ECM updates and water pumps. He also did custom exhaust risers (I guess the Carolina’s are known to have short exhaust risers from the factory).

    Anyways, the boat also has all new running gear, so I wanted to ask if anyone has any numbers I should look for on the Sea Trial? GPH, Max RPM, etc. He said the boat does 26 knots at 2200 RPM’s and thinks about 13gph, but couldn’t say for certain. My surveyor will confirm numbers, but I wanted to ask you all for any extra information to look for. Its a daunting task purchasing a boat from California sight unseen, so any help would be greatly appreciated. It sounds like a great boat – but you just never know.

    I believe aftercoolers and heat exchangers are original. Based on hours and years, I’d assume both must be replaced?

    Thank you so much in advance for the help! It is very much appreciated.

Viewing 20 replies - 1 through 20 (of 27 total)
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  • #32157

    Tim Schantz
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Miss Quinn
    Engines: QSB6.7 550hp
    Location: Cape May NJ
    Country: USA

    Thank you to everyone for your help and advice. This has been a disappointing outcome. After flying to VA, putting a deposit on the boat, spending the money on flights and surveys, I figured the broker would have been a bit more empathetic, but he offered me $25k off the boat to do the work myself. When my reponse was that I’d need $50 to do everything, he got nasty. Definitely took a turn for the worse. I asked for my deposit back, so I’m just hoping he sends it and we can all be on our way…

    Wow, I wouldn’t touch it for $25k off. One piece of advice that I give everyone is you should be using your own broker to represent you in the deal. A broker representing both parties is still only truly representing the seller.

    #32155

    Allen Kandelman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Chum Guzzler
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Dana Point, CA
    Country: USA

    Thank you to everyone for your help and advice. This has been a disappointing outcome. After flying to VA, putting a deposit on the boat, spending the money on flights and surveys, I figured the broker would have been a bit more empathetic, but he offered me $25k off the boat to do the work myself. When my reponse was that I’d need $50 to do everything, he got nasty. Definitely took a turn for the worse. I asked for my deposit back, so I’m just hoping he sends it and we can all be on our way…

    #32152

    Tim Schantz
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Miss Quinn
    Engines: QSB6.7 550hp
    Location: Cape May NJ
    Country: USA

    Did you have a hull survey done? If so how did that come through?

    At one point you said he was willing to replace the after cooler on the “good” engine and replace the “bad” engine. Is that offer still on the table? If so, have you considered writing the contract to the effect that once this work is done and the boat is propped correctly and final engine survey is passed, then you’ll complete the deal? From what I read here that seems like the a good possible outcome, he is going to need to fix it anyway if he really wants to sell.

    From the sale listing on Yachtworld, it doesn’t look like he was scared to spend money on it. The other question you could possibly ask is what props were on it before they were replaced, as the listing states. That will tell you if the boat has always been operated in an over propped state or if that is a situation caused by the new props.

    Nobody can tell you how to proceed, you need to be comfortable with the purchase. If it causes you discomfort or worry, walk.

    #32135

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    You left something out–That “think $50k” was IF the vessel was in my yard–BIG difference in labor/time than trying to do the work at a yard on in a slip.

    Tony

    #32128

    Philip
    Participant
    Vessel Name: 2007 35’ Cabo ‘FUGA’
    Engines: Cummins QSC8.3-540’s
    Location: Long Beach, CA

    I’d say 75-80k, repitch the props, service the aftercoolers and run it for the season…. then figure all else out.

    Just be careful of the ‘I need a boat’ emotion… you can always charter for way less than you will spend….

    Just my 2 cents…

    Phil

    #32122

    Allen Kandelman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Chum Guzzler
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Dana Point, CA
    Country: USA

    The cummins mechanic was/is Shawn Stevens of Virignia Beach Boats. He’s a certified Cummins and Yanmar guy… and seems to know his stuff.

    I really am at a loss and dont know what to do. As I said previously, the motors ran GREAT and showed no signs of problems… aside from clearly being overpropped. Had it not been for a mechanical survey and had Shawn not measured the blow by, I wouldn’t have known.

    I spoke with Tony this morning and he said plan on spending $50k to go through both motors the right way. Another mechanic said $60-80k depending on what all we do. But if the starboard motor ran fine, and showed no sign of wear or excess blow by, do I just plan to rebuild the port motor, and remove some pitch from both props and run it? We’re just getting into fishing season and we just sold our Grady White. So we really don’t know what to do.

    Asking price for the boat is $165. We agreed on $145 before the Sea Trial. But clearly the situation has changed. What would you do?

    #32102

    Tim Schantz
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Miss Quinn
    Engines: QSB6.7 550hp
    Location: Cape May NJ
    Country: USA

    Who was the Cummins tech that did the sea trial with you? Was it an older gentleman?

    If everything else checks out and he is willing to replace the engine and the aftercooler on the other engine I think that you would still be good on moving forward.

    #32101

    Stephen Oliver
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Ascella
    Engines: 2x Cummins 330hp Diamond
    Location: Perth, Australia
    Country: Australia

    If he’s willing to reduce it by the engine amount – why not get it at a reduced price – expect to recon or replace the engine at some point and just use it – with adjusted props of course – it could be something cheaper and simpler than a new engine.. so a big win for you! or the engine could last another several thousand hours…

    Do i remember something called the low orbit blow by test? – that if you carefully undo the filler cap while its running – if it doesnt fly into low orbit – then the engine is ok – May have just been 6bt related!

    Steve

    #32095

    Rob Schepis
    Forum Moderator
    Vessel Name: Tenacious
    Engines: 6BTA 5.9 330's - "Seaboard Style"
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Country: USA

    “But the owner is willing to replace the motor with a Cummins recon. And replace the aftercoolers on both motors.”

    That’s nothing to sneeze at. If it were me, I’d get that all figured out as to $$ and reduce the purchase price accordingly and move forward. The boat otherwise sounds worth it. I hate “shopping”, I’d rather take on something that makes sense $$-wise and put the time and effort into it to make it right than spend more time and $$ shopping…. there’s just to much junk out there. But some people are perpetual shoppers and will go on forever looking for perfection..

    Yes, propping needs attention but do keep in mind that on a hull like that some black smoke getting over the hump could be normal as long as there is no sign of any steady smoke cruising since it should all go away on plane. Like a truck going through the gears…..

    #32076

    Philip
    Participant
    Vessel Name: 2007 35’ Cabo ‘FUGA’
    Engines: Cummins QSC8.3-540’s
    Location: Long Beach, CA

    Allen

    The black smoke on acceleration is from lack of aftercooler maintenance and overpropping.

    Wonder what effect servicing of the aftercooler as described here and a good prop adjustment would have on the engines?

    Seller is going to have to do that stuff no matter what at this point if he sells the boat to you or someone else. Any chance he will do that work and then give you another shot at a sea trial?

    Phil

    #32074

    Allen Kandelman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Chum Guzzler
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Dana Point, CA
    Country: USA

    Hey Phil –

    Correct – high blow by. I willl admit, the engines ran like bats outta hell and showed no signs of weakness. To answer you question, there was a fair bit of gray smoke on the cold start, but it quickly dissipated. Figure 30 seconds or so? And then there was large plume of black smoke every time he’d bring it up to planing RPM (1900+ or so. I can’t say for certain) – and then the black smoke would turn to steam 15 seconds or so later.

    The engines never got hot. At WOT (which was only 2480RPM), the engines were about 167-169. They may have jumped into above 170 for a moment – but for as many times as we brought it up to WOT, I was impressed how cool they ran.

    It was only when he hooked up his blow by tool that we learned there was a problem. Is it possible that if the aftercooler was clapped out (roached) – that would have been the culprit behind the high amount of oil in the blow by??

    #32064

    Philip
    Participant
    Vessel Name: 2007 35’ Cabo ‘FUGA’
    Engines: Cummins QSC8.3-540’s
    Location: Long Beach, CA

    Sorry to hear the sea trial wasn’t up to snuff. Remember the first rule of boat buying and boats in general is NEVER get emotionally attached, especially during the purchase process. Last thing you want is emotion driving a business decision.

    Now to that business decision, you didn’t tell us enough to know how you came to the decision that the cylinders were ‘roached’. I’m guessing high blow by?

    How did they start from stone cold? Lots of cranking? Any smoke when cold?

    I would think new recons would come with new aftercooler and would be 50-60k+/- just for the engines. Add in some labor and it’s getting up there. Not sure how much is in this deal but if your in the $150k neighborhood that would mean the seller is now selling for 85-90k which is a big hit and would concern me that he’s doing the repairs recons right…

    If you could get a credit and do it yourself you would know the work is done right but take some risk as you go through her if you uncover something else.

    It all comes down to sense and cents. Any boat for the right price….

    Phil

    #32058

    Allen Kandelman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Chum Guzzler
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Dana Point, CA
    Country: USA

    Well… my journey across the country did not go how I had expected at all. When I arrived at the shipyard, I was pleased to see that the gel coat had shined up great, and aesthetically, it was as nice or nicer than I was hoping. But that’s about where the story ends. My first part of the sea trial across the Chesapeake bay proves the boat was and is way overpropped. 2100 RPMS and the fuel burn was around 16gph. 1900RPM was 12gph. I wasn’t stoked, but figured the boat could be re propped. After inning across the bay, we picked up the Cummins mechanic for a mechanical survey. After hooking up his tool to the turbo/after coolers to measure blow by, we cut the survey short. The starboard motor measured 12, but the port motor measured 32. The cylinders are roached. The block basically needs to be replaced.

    I’m super bummed. And ready to walk away. But the owner is willing to replace the motor with a Cummins recon. And replace the aftercoolers on both motors. On his dime. My gut tells me to walk. Thoughts??

    #31796

    Tony Athens
    Moderator
    Vessel Name: Local Banks
    Engines: QSB 6.7 550 HP
    Location: Oxnard, CA
    Country: USA

    I talked will Alan on the phone today.. I told him want matters is the fuel burn between 1800 & 2200 RPM.. Told to run in two opposite directions and to write in down and record vessel speeds–Then post a chart/results..

    He mentioned that per the vessel owner, that in the last 6 years, he only recorded about 300 hours since new heads were installed.. I told him to ask for fuel records we”ll compare that against those hours to look at duty cycle….

    We’ll see what he comes back with.

    Tony

    #31794

    Rob Schepis
    Forum Moderator
    Vessel Name: Tenacious
    Engines: 6BTA 5.9 330's - "Seaboard Style"
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Country: USA

    Hopefully with all they’ve been through they knew enough to get the propping sorted out but yes only the burn numbers throughout the rpm ranges will tell the true story….

    #31786

    Philip
    Participant
    Vessel Name: 2007 35’ Cabo ‘FUGA’
    Engines: Cummins QSC8.3-540’s
    Location: Long Beach, CA

    Not to be a Debbie downer, but it will be interesting to see the fuel burn vs rpm numbers. The 480CE is pretty sensitive to overpropping and I am going to go out early and suggest that your overpropped. The repairs your seeing I would think are exactly what you would see from overpropping.

    It’s not a clearance issue on the heads rather it was overpropping and excessive heat that killed the valve seats. Once the seats came apart they took out the turbo…

    But that’s just a guess, so we will see what others have to say especially once the fuel burns are known.

    Other than that it looks clean. Any idea why the transmission was rebuilt?

    Phil

    #31769

    Allen Kandelman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Chum Guzzler
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Dana Point, CA
    Country: USA

    That’s awesome Rob – thank you very for looking out.

    I’m flying to Virginia Monday to Sea Trial the boat. In the interim, the broker has given me a folder FULL of receipts. So many it’s actually a little scary.

    In 2011, the owner stated lots of black smoke. The props were overptiched and they replaced both turbos.

    In 2012, he spent about $7k building the custom exhaust risers.

    Later the same year, the stbd engine #3 cylinder valve seat failed. The damaged piston was replaced, and valve seats in all cylinders were bad. They replaced the turbo again. And machined the cylinder head. The invoice says new head, but the mechanic says he had the head machined and gave himself more clearance as preventive maintenance. Can this be done?

    At the same time, they checked the port engine and it had a cracked cylinder head, cylinder #6. Valves cylinders 3-6 were loose. Cylinder head was pulled and machined the same as the other motor.

    The next year, the owner hit a shoal and ALL the running gear was replaced by insurance. About $35-40k in receipts. My surveyor just checked it out yesterday and said it looks great – like it was a job well done.

    Since then, a lot of work has been done to the boat. The port transmission was rebuilt. New sea water pumps. New alternators. New batteries. New sea strainers.

    Aftercoolers need to replaced for sure.

    My main concern is these motors. Supposedly the owner has only put about 300 hours on the boat since the heads were redone in 2012. Does anyone know if you can machine the heads to allow extra valve clearance?

    Again, any help is appreciated.

    I will be posting fuel numbers after we Sea Trial the boat next week.
    My question

    #31578

    Rob Schepis
    Forum Moderator
    Vessel Name: Tenacious
    Engines: 6BTA 5.9 330's - "Seaboard Style"
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Country: USA

    Gotcha, thanks. Was curious if it was right in my backyard or in an area where I know several surveyors.

    #31569

    Allen Kandelman
    Participant
    Vessel Name: Chum Guzzler
    Engines: Cummins 480CE
    Location: Dana Point, CA
    Country: USA

    Norfolk, Virginia

    #31541

    Rob Schepis
    Forum Moderator
    Vessel Name: Tenacious
    Engines: 6BTA 5.9 330's - "Seaboard Style"
    Location: Long Island, NY
    Country: USA

    Where exactly on the East Coast is this boat?

Viewing 20 replies - 1 through 20 (of 27 total)

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